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Old 10-04-2017, 05:59 PM   #21
toycar
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First thing I want to say, Is I am a huge gun supporter/advocate


Anyways, the graph is bullshit. Other stuff contributed to the widespread violence that tookover in the late 80's and that is really when gun violence peaked in recent times. if you lived through it, you know. Late 80's was way more violent than todays times.

Anyone wanting to feel informed on anything I am about to quote, I got it from here:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...993-study-says



But anyways, chew on this:

"Looking at the larger topic of firearm deaths, there were 31,672 deaths from guns in the U.S. in 2010," according to the Pew Center study. "Most (19,392) were suicides; the gun suicide rate has been higher than the gun homicide rate since at least 1981"


Meaning more people died from someone feeling suicidal with a gun than anyone else that was killed with a gun.


Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Also, just for the sake of conversation, of the 12,280 people that were murdered with a gun, 55% of them were African American(6,754). The other 5,526 people account for all other races in America combined, in a Country with a population exceeding 323 million. I am not trying to put a racial spin on this, just to emphasize that there is a disproportionate amount of Homicides among that demographic and further warps the way the numbers feel if you break it down that one step.

On the flip side of the argument, Healthcare associated infections killed 99,000 people in America last year alone. Meaning you are almost 8 times more likely to die from an infection you got from your dirty ass Hospital than you are from a gun.



Influenza and Pneumonia killed 57,062 people in 2014 and 146,xxx people died from "accidents"


I sure hope those 12,280 people that died from gun crimes get fairly represented though. I mean, the ONLY THING that stops a person with a gun, is another person with a gun.

But man, they sure are dangerous. That 0.0000038 % of the population surely represents the fate of all Americans as long as guns are on the loose.

Fuck guns, right???...........////// end rant
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im a douchebag to people and i don't even own a lambo. whats your point? we, douchbags, come in all sorts of shapes and colours.

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Old 10-04-2017, 07:30 PM   #22
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These style attacks are usually planned, if I read correctly the Vegas guy had more firearms in his room. That means these people have the intent to harm as many others as possible. remove guns and what will these guys likely turn to? A couple of trips to home depot and some time on the internet can yield much higher body counts and as an added bonus there wouldn't even be a gunman to stop. Being able to protect yourself is a fundamental right, guns are an equalizer.
All you have to do is look at history and the world to know this thought process will fail. But it's what you believe in, no disrespect there. A culture thing too.
Some parts of the world are so bad one has to protect themselves with weapons. Some parts of the world they do not. Some use to, but have changed. Change is possible. It may have took 100+ years, but a change of this magnitude is possible.
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Old 10-05-2017, 12:29 AM   #23
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All you have to do is look at history and the world to know this thought process will fail. But it's what you believe in, no disrespect there. A culture thing too.
Some parts of the world are so bad one has to protect themselves with weapons. Some parts of the world they do not. Some use to, but have changed. Change is possible. It may have took 100+ years, but a change of this magnitude is possible.
yes a cultural change would be just peachy, especially if we could convince all the crazies to just give out hugs instead of killing people. Unfortunately this is not the situation nor a possibility within the realm of humanity. Personally it'd would be better to have access to a firearm and be killed by someone that also has one than to be without any means of protection when one of the far outliers decides to go on a killing spree. Just one question, what is the one thing most responsible for stopping every terrorist/mass attacker? (hint, it isn't kind words and groups hugs)
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Old 10-05-2017, 07:37 AM   #24
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Since this thread has turned into a debate about gun control, I don’t foresee it being long for this world. We’re not going to accomplish anything by bickering. We’ll just end up losing members. I don’t want that. I assume most of us don’t want that.
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Old 10-05-2017, 05:04 PM   #25
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Sucks that the topic is so volatile


Nobody needs a machine gun

Nobody needs an ar15 that'll mow down a herd a zombies that just compromised a fence(walking dead reference)


Guns aren't exactly the problem.


To me these are two very separate issues. Vegas guy would've killed regardless of gun laws.


Doesn't mean we all need fucking machine guns either.


No middle ground in the conversation it seems, but common sense says otherwise. I'm waiting for the gun advocate to start saying it's legal to arm his drone.

Where do you draw the line. Bump stock firing is neat, it's fun to play with, but let's just be honest here;

It's a poor mans fully auto rifle. Nobody needs full auto for anything, ever, unless you are military.

Fun to play with, sure. I'll bite on that argument. Still, no way to justify the need though.
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Old 10-05-2017, 07:04 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by toycar View Post
Sucks that the topic is so volatile


Nobody needs a machine gun

Nobody needs an ar15 that'll mow down a herd a zombies that just compromised a fence(walking dead reference)


Guns aren't exactly the problem.


To me these are two very separate issues. Vegas guy would've killed regardless of gun laws.


Doesn't mean we all need fucking machine guns either.


No middle ground in the conversation it seems, but common sense says otherwise. I'm waiting for the gun advocate to start saying it's legal to arm his drone.

Where do you draw the line. Bump stock firing is neat, it's fun to play with, but let's just be honest here;

It's a poor mans fully auto rifle. Nobody needs full auto for anything, ever, unless you are military.

Fun to play with, sure. I'll bite on that argument. Still, no way to justify the need though.
I couldn’t agree more.

The loudest voices on both sides of the argument tend to take things too far. Either we should all be Rambo, or we should all be Ghandi. It’s all middle ground. It’s all a gray area. But no gray solution is going to be a total fix (not that any solution will be perfect, no matter how far to one side that solution may be).
The primary issue is the human element. And that is a constant. You can not remove the human element short of extinction of the species. As long as we’re human, folks will continue to do both good and bad with whatever they have to work with. And humans are resourceful, creative creatures.

We don’t need to take away everyone’s guns. We don’t need to issue every red blooded American their very own m16, either. We need something in the middle. And we need a focus on our society as a whole.



I realize I’m hypocritically participating in this conversation. But as long as it’s not at the level of being rude and insulting to one another, I’ll let it continue. The minute it turns ugly, it’s going to get locked.
Please don’t let it get that far.
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Old 10-06-2017, 04:28 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by deevergote View Post
I couldn’t agree more.

The loudest voices on both sides of the argument tend to take things too far. Either we should all be Rambo, or we should all be Ghandi. It’s all middle ground. It’s all a gray area. But no gray solution is going to be a total fix (not that any solution will be perfect, no matter how far to one side that solution may be).
The primary issue is the human element. And that is a constant. You can not remove the human element short of extinction of the species. As long as we’re human, folks will continue to do both good and bad with whatever they have to work with. And humans are resourceful, creative creatures.

We don’t need to take away everyone’s guns. We don’t need to issue every red blooded American their very own m16, either. We need something in the middle. And we need a focus on our society as a whole.



I realize I’m hypocritically participating in this conversation. But as long as it’s not at the level of being rude and insulting to one another, I’ll let it continue. The minute it turns ugly, it’s going to get locked.
Please don’t let it get that far.
IMO, the problem is much larger than the guns themselves. I am not a "gun nut," but definitely advocate for gun rights, just as much as I do voting rights etc. Call me a Libertarian.

So here is the bigger issue as I see it.

1) The 2nd Amendment is NOT vague in its punctuation or its intent. Nor is the intent of the people who wrote it vague or poorly known. There is this pushed contingent of indoctrination that attempts to portray the 2nd Amendment as ensuring the right to hunt, or somehow as a vaguely worded and not clearly understood facet of a document that is actually quite clear in ALL of its definitions and intent. There is an attempt to play it off as "obsolete" "unforeseen" or whatever else needs to be thrown out there to make it sound credible. There is plenty of historic record of the INTENT of the 2nd Amendment. It was to prevent government tyranny by means of a well armed populace. In the STRICTEST interpretation, which would be literal, the citizenry is entitled to be armed with anything the military is armed with. Now, there was understanding amongst the founding fathers that they be well regulated (basically meaning "trained"), so you could argue that training should be required. However, it is also true that mandated training on weapons use makes a person more effective and deadly in most cases. The reason the Vietcong and Iraqis didn't kick our asses faster and more often was because they didn't know how to use their weapons properly and we did (the AK-47 is MUCH more powerful than an M-16/AR-15). Actually, most people don't realize that an AR-15 has much less killing power than a typical off the shelf hunting rifle, such is the level of misinformation out there on these weapons.

2) However, the biggest problem as I see it is that if we start dismantling the parts of the Constitution that we "don't like" or don't "agree with" then that makes it open season on the rest of it because it starts a precedent (just like the escalating abuse of Executive Orders). What happens when a President or Legislature who is not of your persuasion decides you shouldn't be able to say something or should be punished if you peacefully protest and they are successful in dismantling that part of the Constitution/Bill of Rights?

If the Second Amendment gets demolished because some people don't like it or don't agree with it, then what happens when that particular group loses power to someone who doesn't like another aspect of the rights provided in the Constitution or Bill of Rights? Social and Societal whims are cyclical, which is precisely why they put those protections in there.

Our forefathers very deliberately chose liberty over safety, and they KNEW that the consequence of personal freedom was the inability to completely stop events such as these. Of course, I doubt they could have foreseen the magnitude, but they understood the premise.

3) People can deny it all they want, but documented history PROVES that power is always cemented by taking away the guns. EVERY_SINGLE_TIME. Pick a dictator or oppressive regime of your choosing. The Russian Communists, the Chinese Communists, Vietnamese Communists, the Nazis, the Italians, and on and on and on. It ALWAYS starts the same way. "We need to take your guns to protect you." "It has to stop!!!!" "Do it for the children." "We want to make a better society." EVERY_SINGLE_OPPRESSIVE regime in history has had to take the guns first, otherwise people would resist.

I am not a conspiracy theory nut by any stretch, but knowing how the anti-gun agenda in this country works, it would not surprise me one bit if this was their "long" game to remove the biggest impediment to them being able to remove the awful "gun toting rednecks" that they believe constitutes anybody that doesn't agree with them. I believe this because they constantly want to strip the rights of several hundred million law abiding citizens in the interest of safety, but absolutely will not budge on the mental health rights of less than .1% of the population so that these nuts won't be as likely to get the guns they use to kill innocent people in these shooting sprees. Do I think this was their guy? No. Do I think they put an intense of amount of focus and attention on it to create the desired effect? Yes. We kill literally thousands of people a day by speeding and talking on our cell phones. People mowed down in absolute tragic circumstances. Kids, children, mothers, grandparents, etc. The vast majority of those are caused by conscious decision to break existing laws because we want to. Nobody gives a shit about the consequences of those actions and you sure as hell don't see it blown up by the media...

As for this particular tragedy, I had a couple of good friends at the concert who were pretty shook up over it. My company is based on Las Vegas and we had to all check in through a system so that they could account for who might have been missing. It appears that everybody is OK thankfully. My wife heard all of the sirens responding to the shooting and immediately knew something was wrong.

This will be an interesting case study because unlike the vast majority of shootings prior, there were no clear and identifiable signs of mental problems with this shooter. They were clearly there, but there was no previous medical history to document it.

Also, to the comment earlier, I agree that bump stocks are essentially a way to make a semi-auto gun automatic. But it should also be noted that it is a work around (the law of unintended consequences) for the law that banned automatic weapons in the 1980's and then the next law that banned modifying the trigger and spring mechanism on a semi-automatic weapon to become automatic. So, somebody invented the bump stock. Outlaw that, and someone will invent something else that does the same thing in a different manner. If you outlaw all possible options, then you drive the black arms market, feed the cartels and create the same problem we have with drugs, humans and every other means of "black market" shipping. If people want to do harm, they will find a way.

Look at the massive uptick in bombings worldwide as a means to cause mass killing.

I also agree with verothecamaro, that it needs to be a cultural shift. We need to stop glorifying this behavior. We need to stop watching it, buying it, etc. We need to stop letting people who have issues go untreated, undiagnosed and unknown to the bigger system. We need to stop trying to protect people from any form of emotional distress and expecting them to cope when it happens. There is a lot of messed up stuff that needs to be dealt with and it isn't just the guns. The gun is merely a tool, and like any tool, does only what it is told to by its operator.

Last edited by owequitit; 10-06-2017 at 04:33 AM.
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Old 10-06-2017, 04:42 AM   #28
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This.

One of my friends called me this morning to tell me that she had been up since 3 am worried sick and crying because of one her best friends was at that concert. She had finally heard from her but it pretty traumatizing from what I had been told.

Her friend was in the middle of it when it went down and she had gotten down to lay low from the gunfire and next to her a stranger who she had gone down with had been shot and killed..I for one don't know how I could handle such a traumatizing event especially witnessing someone die like that..


So I didn't post about it on FB because of that, I don't want him to get attention at all, if anything I would want the victims to be remembered..I have other reasons as to why I chose not to speak about it because let's be real:

If he was a person of color it would be covered in a totally different way you and I know that hell..the rest of the world would know that.

I'm not trying to stir the pot, but my question is why the hell won't they call it for what it is.

Domestic terrorism.

I don't give a damn if he lived a lavish life playing $100 hand poker. This moron committed an act of terror on towards people who were just having a fun night out only to be ruined by terror. It pisses me off because I feel like theyre just making excuses for this guy..oh he owned a few places lived in a retirement community...he would never do such a thing. blah blah

It makes me sad for sure but it also makes me very very weary of where I go. It shows that it could be ANYONE and anytime..doesn't matter what race you are.
Why does everything in this country have to be about race?

1) White mass shooters get pilloried the same as anyone else.

2) The use of "terrorism" in this country is taboo because it would A) admit that we have people within willing to attack us (we like to save the connotation to be about the other guy overseas) and B) it has a negative stigma that people immediately associate with Arabs, so it is a racially sensitive term.

3) You appear to be misunderstanding the explanation of what he had and how it relates to the case. They aren't bragging that he had money. They are merely talking about the fact that he didn't fit the profile of someone who typically commits a crime like this. The majority of these cases have been young, male kids in the ~high school to college age demographic that feel like they have been "wronged" by society. Or they are out to push a political agenda like on 9-11.

This shooter's history is relevant because he wasn't in financial distress (that we know of), he didn't have previous mental history (that we know of), he was financially successful, had a long term relationship, was socially engaged with his family and friends, wasn't historically politically involved, motivated or oriented, etc. In other words, it wasn't a situation where preliminary investigation started to uncover a large amount of information that would suggest there was likely to be a problem. Could he have snapped or gone crazy slowly? Absolutely. Could he have been a sociopath in hiding? Quite possibly (do some reading about his father, who was as notorious bank robber in AZ in the 1960's), but the reason that is all being talked about is because it is all stuff that is typically indicative of someone who would NOT commit a heinous act such as this one. That leaves a lack of an obvious motive, which is something that is uncommon. Adam Lanza is the only other one I can think of where they couldn't really determine the exact motive.

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Old 10-06-2017, 04:53 AM   #29
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True but no matter how much they fight to be against it the NRA comes out swinging.

I have friends that carry..me personally? I hate guns, never drawn any interest from me whatsoever. I recently read there was more to the 2nd Amendment than meets the eye, a darker side to it.

Im all set. If doesn't tell you we need stricter control..I don't what else would be a friggin sign.
The NRA is just a lobby group like Greenpeace or WWF.

This is something I have seen pushed out of perspective lately apparently because we all need a large common "enemy." It is the lobby version of big corporations I guess.

The NRA is simply a voice or many millions of gun owners and the reason they have a large voice and thus a lot of power, is because the VOTERS that make up their lobby have the ability to remove or place law makers in pretty much every district. Since the law makers need NRA members in order to get elected, they listen very carefully to what the NRA says. It isn't because the NRA is some power group. It is more likely that it is your next door neighbor that is REALLY the powerful one.
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Old 10-06-2017, 07:41 AM   #30
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Respectfully, I don't think following rules made in a very different world is the best way for a modern society to work.

I don't agree with it in the middle east and I don't agree with it here.

I understand and respect the views held to uphold tradition but it doesn't seem to work very well in practice.

Removing gun rights worked in my country. The many gun amnesty's we have has worked.

There are downsides to everything but we do not have the consistent gun violence.

We do still have violence. Stabbings, gang attacks, lots of terrible alcohol fuelled violence. People die.

But the risk factor is reduced.

People are always going to be terrible. Why make it easier for them to be so.
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Old 10-06-2017, 09:50 AM   #31
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Respectfully, I don't think following rules made in a very different world is the best way for a modern society to work.
When those rules are made based off of the universal and timeless downfalls of society such as corruption and oppression of "others" I think they are most certainly relevant. The same base threats we have now are the same my country's forefathers dealt with and attempted to protect us against by giving as guidline
I don't agree with it in the middle east and I don't agree with it here.

I understand and respect the views held to uphold tradition but it doesn't seem to work very well in practice.
making things illegal or outlawed doesn't work in practice either

Removing gun rights worked in my country. The many gun amnesty's we have has worked.
because you have a small country and relatively few gun owners/guns before you were disarmed. You have no way of knowing how much violence removing the ability to protect oneself has enabled. All you see is "well we haven't had a mass shooting in X amount of time". You literally have NO chance of stopping someone if they decide to become violent on a mass scale, you'd have to call the police and wait the minutes for them to arrive while some luny has his/her way with easy targets.

There are downsides to everything but we do not have the consistent gun violence. the extremely small percentage of violent gun crimes compared to gun ownership in my country is a downside, but certainly a much more acceptable one than leaving everyone to depend on an already over worked police force to protect them. I guess gun bans work if you don't mind the downside of society being a power struggle where the physically weak are helpless against violence.

We do still have violence. Stabbings, gang attacks, lots of terrible alcohol fuelled violence. People die.

But the risk factor is reduced.

The risk of being shot goes down but the risk of being beat to death, stabbed, mauled and otherwise killed goes up.

People are always going to be terrible. Why make it easier for them to be so.
Take a minute and consider gun ownership as a tool of protection instead of what liberal media and political leadership are WAY over dramatizing it to be and then go back and read your last comment (several times if need be). Post your conclusion.

Last edited by Bunta; 10-06-2017 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 10-06-2017, 05:46 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by lbus9168 View Post
Respectfully, I don't think following rules made in a very different world is the best way for a modern society to work.

I don't agree with it in the middle east and I don't agree with it here.

I understand and respect the views held to uphold tradition but it doesn't seem to work very well in practice.

Removing gun rights worked in my country. The many gun amnesty's we have has worked.

There are downsides to everything but we do not have the consistent gun violence.

We do still have violence. Stabbings, gang attacks, lots of terrible alcohol fuelled violence. People die.

But the risk factor is reduced.

People are always going to be terrible. Why make it easier for them to be so.
You'll have to remember that the next time you use your "antiquated" right to vote or exercise your free speech.

P.S. guys like Castro and Hugo Chavez, Kim Jong-Un, and many others have all existed within the last 5 years, so I think it is absolutely a logical stretch to say that there is no need for a modern people to be able to protect themselves. Reality simply says otherwise, despite what ideology might want to tell us.

Gun control is at the root of ALL oppressive regimes. But I guess having millions of people starving to death without power while Kimmy spends billions on his palaces and missiles is a far better alternative. Never mind that when his henchmen show up at your door to steal your 14 year-old daughter to join his sex slave harem, you let her go because you have no way to resist him...

I'll take the "antiquated" views on guns. Thanks.
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Old 10-06-2017, 08:27 PM   #33
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Why does everything in this country have to be about race?
Because that seems to be the norm lately...I'm not saying everyone is racist but c'mon call it what it is Scott. You and I both know that even if he happened to be a p.o.c and he fit that description about this guy.

It would be a totally different story.

Fox news commentators came out and said we don't know enough about him to hate the guy. how the hell do you NOT hate a guy who took out 58 innocent lives and injured 500 or more before offing himself like a coward?

Tim McVeigh bombed a building in OKC back in 95, didn't fit the typical description of a terrorist...but in the end he was labled one.

If you do heinous crimes of this nature...I don't care if you Asian, Black or White..you're a person who committed an act of terror.

They tie this type of shit to mental instability when it comes to white men...but if another person who isn't white is labled something else other than mentally unstable.
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Old 10-07-2017, 01:24 AM   #34
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Because that seems to be the norm lately...I'm not saying everyone is racist but c'mon call it what it is Scott. You and I both know that even if he happened to be a p.o.c and he fit that description about this guy.

It would be a totally different story.

Fox news commentators came out and said we don't know enough about him to hate the guy. how the hell do you NOT hate a guy who took out 58 innocent lives and injured 500 or more before offing himself like a coward?

Tim McVeigh bombed a building in OKC back in 95, didn't fit the typical description of a terrorist...but in the end he was labled one.

If you do heinous crimes of this nature...I don't care if you Asian, Black or White..you're a person who committed an act of terror.

They tie this type of shit to mental instability when it comes to white men...but if another person who isn't white is labled something else other than mentally unstable.
This everything is the fault of white privilege crap is such non-sense.

Based on what I have seen the last two years, black kids can attempt to steal a gun from a cop while he is seated in his squad car and the white cop becomes the bad guy. Worst of all, the media jumps into the middle of the fight against the "racist" cop without ANY processing of the forensic evidence which exonerated the claims of the officer and completely refuted the claims of the social justice warriors.

This guy isn't being treated with a velvet glove. They have simply said that they have no idea what his motive was, nor why he would do it because he didn't have any of the normal signs that typically accompany this.

As for Fox News, I don't watch it or consider it a valid new source (along with CNN, MSNBC, etc) so I don't have any idea if they said that or not. I haven't seen a single REPUTABLE media outlet claim any such thing or claim he should be exempt because he is white.

That said, it could be classified as terrorism, but you are making a HUGE mistake in how you classify the two different groups by putting them together. Terrorists of one group are NOT typically crazy. You can't lump people with mental orders into the same groups or categories as people who have a political agenda and a set of actions that are based on a very logical and rational set of reasoning.

The 9-11 Terrorists were NOT mentally insane. They believed what they were fighting for and they were willing to die for it, just as our soldiers are to protect their way of life.

Can a crazy person be a terrorist? Absolutely. Timothy McVeigh wasn't crazy. He had perceived grievances against the US Government that he acted on when he felt there were no other options. Was it a course of action that most people would have taken? Obviously not. Does that automatically render him crazy? No, it does not.

I would consider this guy to be a terrorist based on the scale of his attack, but I won't necessarily lump him into the category of "crazy" until they have some facts of his motive and mental state. That said, it is looking more and more like he was descending into mental chaos based on statements his girlfriend made (even she didn't think he would do something like this).

It isn't a race issue. It is an issue of mental health, motive and a person using a stock of arms to kill en masse.

Last edited by owequitit; 10-07-2017 at 01:31 AM.
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Old 10-07-2017, 11:44 AM   #35
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and this is where the thread ends up getting locked...



FYI. Terrorism has a cause behind it, an agenda or grievance driving the act. Not all mass shootings are ideologically or politically driven, sometimes the person just is crazy and this is the result.

Last edited by Bunta; 10-07-2017 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 10-07-2017, 12:43 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by owequitit View Post
REPUTABLE media outlet
... such as? The main reason I don't watch the news is because I feel like I can't trust reporters to give an objective view on events. I'd love to look into a source that you feel is reliably unbiased.
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Old 10-08-2017, 12:54 AM   #37
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... such as? The main reason I don't watch the news is because I feel like I can't trust reporters to give an objective view on events. I'd love to look into a source that you feel is reliably unbiased.
First, you have to understand that EVERY_SINGLE media source is biased. Short of hard physical data, or some other verifiable scientific endeavor, there is always a little bit of spin and sometimes the "science" can have that too.

That said, the best way to protect against the bias is to gather data from as many sources as possible, and when possible, go straight to the source. For instance, with Trump's executive orders, I go and read the actual E.O. because a lot of the media outlets simply are not reporting a truth due to their politicized agenda. That occurs on both sides.

That said, I find myself generally doing less rechecking and finding fewer holes in a lot of print media, vs televised media. I like USA Today, Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, Dallas Morning News, and the LA Times, understanding that they are all biased in certain ways, but they seem to be pretty neutral most of the time.

For television media, I may watch local news channels but definitely stay away from the major ratings channels like CNN, FOX, MSNBC, etc. I tend to like CNBC in the same way I like The Wall Street Journal. They are absolutely biased toward the performance of the market and economy, but they tell you that upfront.

I sure as HELL stay away from absolutely useless crap garbage like Breitbart, Huffington Post, VOX, and most of the others of that nature. For online sources, I like Reuters and Associated Press as well as some others on a case by case basis.

But the real strategy is verify everything on my own. It takes a lot more work, but it is amazing just how quickly you can smell the B.S. and find the slant. Once you do that, it is easier to use any source because you know where they are biased.
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Old 10-08-2017, 08:06 AM   #38
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Just want to point out that the passion behind some of these posts is exactly why we as a country are in such a stale mate on the issues.


Its like scott (i think thats owequitits name) feels so strongly behind his position he might try and make the case that people living in America should have machine guns and grenades, you know, because of the constitution.

No offense to him either, i generaly find his posts to be subjective and well thought out. Smart guy for sure.

But, is he really trying to suggest people actually stand and a chance against tyranny in todays climate? The weapons of today have advanced in a fashion that nobody stands a chance as a civilian against a government operation. Not in America anyways.


And the other side of the arguement, man its tough because i really do beleieve that its possible that minorities believe in white privilege and have it engrained in their head that white people dont deal with the same racisim, hatred and biased behavior all day every day.

But we do. My my apologies to anyone i upset with this post, but seriously, my fucking 10 year old boy gets picked on for being white pretty much constantly. Imagine having to explain to your 10 year old why HE needs to be tolerant of black kids making fun of him for being "pasty" or talking shit because he is "white trash" or a "honky"

We live in a nice place, sub 350k in rural iowa. We do ok, and out kids are well taken care of. Its not white privilege either, ive worked my ass of and had a full time job + my own business mostnof the 30+ years i have worked, but try telling that to the next "trayvon martin" who thinks im a white asshole because i drive an audi s6 and have quartz countertops.

Fuck that shit. I came from literally nothing, crackhead mom, drug dealing hells angel of a father. Ive been to prison twice and have "been there and done that" when it comes to roughing it.

At one point in my life i survived on top ramen + italian salad dressing while living in a fucking $29/night hotel.


Life is all about how hard you try and how bad do you want it.

End of story. No color, race or religion will help you if you do not try and you do not want it.


Minorities would riot at an epic scale if there was even one tenth the divisive, singularized rhetoric coming out of white people as there is coming from minorities per capita. Its as if they dont realize that every person they project their beleif onto, that isnt actually racist, is in fact a racist attack and contributes to racism.

For every black lives matter demonstration targeting one single police incident, its like they are calling the other 100,000 good cops racist as well, and we all know that just isnt true.

Its hard to not understand the rationale behind the anger, of course i was upset when they killed and didnt have to. Thing is, more minorities kill minorities for sensless crime than cops kill minorities for debateble reasons.


The hatred is so vile and is being driven by naiive beliefs on both sides of the equation. Everyone really should spend a few minutes trying to walk in the other guys shoes and perhaps this would all just simmer down.

Common sense has to prevail at some point, you would think anyways.
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im a douchebag to people and i don't even own a lambo. whats your point? we, douchbags, come in all sorts of shapes and colours.

Last edited by toycar; 10-08-2017 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 10-08-2017, 02:02 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toycar View Post
Just want to point out that the passion behind some of these posts is exactly why we as a country are in such a stale mate on the issues.


Its like scott (i think thats owequitits name) feels so strongly behind his position he might try and make the case that people living in America should have machine guns and grenades, you know, because of the constitution.

No offense to him either, i generaly find his posts to be subjective and well thought out. Smart guy for sure.

But, is he really trying to suggest people actually stand and a chance against tyranny in todays climate? The weapons of today have advanced in a fashion that nobody stands a chance as a civilian against a government operation. Not in America anyways.


And the other side of the arguement, man its tough because i really do beleieve that its possible that minorities believe in white privilege and have it engrained in their head that white people dont deal with the same racisim, hatred and biased behavior all day every day.

But we do. My my apologies to anyone i upset with this post, but seriously, my fucking 10 year old boy gets picked on for being white pretty much constantly. Imagine having to explain to your 10 year old why HE needs to be tolerant of black kids making fun of him for being "pasty" or talking shit because he is "white trash" or a "honky"

We live in a nice place, sub 350k in rural iowa. We do ok, and out kids are well taken care of. Its not white privilege either, ive worked my ass of and had a full time job + my own business mostnof the 30+ years i have worked, but try telling that to the next "trayvon martin" who thinks im a white asshole because i drive an audi s6 and have quartz countertops.

Fuck that shit. I came from literally nothing, crackhead mom, drug dealing hells angel of a father. Ive been to prison twice and have "been there and done that" when it comes to roughing it.

At one point in my life i survived on top ramen + italian salad dressing while living in a fucking $29/night hotel.


Life is all about how hard you try and how bad do you want it.

End of story. No color, race or religion will help you if you do not try and you do not want it.


Minorities would riot at an epic scale if there was even one tenth the divisive, singularized rhetoric coming out of white people as there is coming from minorities per capita. Its as if they dont realize that every person they project their beleif onto, that isnt actually racist, is in fact a racist attack and contributes to racism.

For every black lives matter demonstration targeting one single police incident, its like they are calling the other 100,000 good cops racist as well, and we all know that just isnt true.

Its hard to not understand the rationale behind the anger, of course i was upset when they killed and didnt have to. Thing is, more minorities kill minorities for sensless crime than cops kill minorities for debateble reasons.


The hatred is so vile and is being driven by naiive beliefs on both sides of the equation. Everyone really should spend a few minutes trying to walk in the other guys shoes and perhaps this would all just simmer down.

Common sense has to prevail at some point, you would think anyways.

Im not one to always bring up race all the time but it's what you see on the news, I agree the whole issue with Chicago is never put under a spot light, but at the same time you have cops you tend to go over the boundaries as a public servant and as a result people get killed namely african americans.

When other cops don't hold their own accountable and the person gets let go for murder as an african american it a sense of injustice.

An African-American cop in NOLA got convicted for shooting a 6 year old that was sitting in a car and got hit with 40 years.

Philando Castiles murderer got off...and he was a Hispanic officer, same thing with Trayvon Martin, Eric Garner (by a chokehold that was illegalby NY State Law) , Fergusons to name a few.

We don't hear about todays discrimination against whites because some would see it as them playing victim so in a way it's a reversal of roles, now I'm not saying all but it's there...I've been in some fucked up situations where I was never aggressive towards cops, but the way I was treated a few times made me really aware of who I was and where I was at all times.

You don't get scrutinized as much unless you're a p.o.c and that's fact.
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Old 10-08-2017, 04:35 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HenRoc View Post

You don't get scrutinized as much unless you're a p.o.c and that's fact.
I get that as a person of color, this probably feels like your reality.

Can you wrap your head around the idea that no, its not fact, and until you have lived as a white person, you'll apparently never understand. The same cop thats an asshole to you, would be an asshole to me. Same arguement you expect me to understand, why cant you? Live as a white person before you think you know what its like. Dont overlook the idea that the hatred is the same, regsrdless of who is throwin it around.

What you are claiming, validates my point entirely.

I could offer examples and we could engage in some sort of tit for tat, whos had it worse but that wouldnt get anyone anywhere and all i am trying to explain here, is that people of color arent the only ones dealing with this shit, they just think they are.
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im a douchebag to people and i don't even own a lambo. whats your point? we, douchbags, come in all sorts of shapes and colours.
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