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EXT : Gummiegorillas Do it Nice or Do it Twice A/C Retrofit !!

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    #46
    Great DIY, this helped greatly when I had to repair my system a few weeks ago.

    However, I used Environmentally Safe I-12 to recharge my system. So far the product seems great. It cost $37 for 6, 6 oz. cans, I only had to use 2 cans to reach the desired low side pressures. (its a HC refrigerant and uses a lot less product to create the correct pressures for the A/C system)

    It recently got up to 93 degrees here and my vent temps hovered around 43 degrees, I was thoroughly impressed. This car was previously running R134A and the temp difference is night and day. When it was using R134A, my system was "cool" with me in the car and only got worse in direct sunlight or with multiple persons in the car with me. With only me in the car, I could have the A/C on the lowest setting and still be a bit chilly.
    http://www.hondanews.com/releases/19...d-introduction

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      #47
      Originally posted by SSMAccord View Post
      Great DIY, this helped greatly when I had to repair my system a few weeks ago.

      However, I used Environmentally Safe I-12 to recharge my system. So far the product seems great. It cost $37 for 6, 6 oz. cans
      I-12 , also known as HC-12a is actually kind of dangerous. I think in 1997 one of the companies that makes this stuff (OZ Technology Inc.) had to apply for an exemption of hazardous materials to the DOT because the chemical properties that it has resemble more of an engine starting fluid than a refrigerant. Although it looks good on the tech sheet, and from what your telling me it works pretty well, I still think that a good amount of companies coming out with synthetic hydrocarbon refrigerants to replace r-12 & r-134a are using propane in the ingredients. Im not certain if that would make your system somewhat flammable in any way or affect the seals. Does it have a flammability waring on the side of the can ? Also could you post back up in a couple months to let us know what kind of vent temps your getting?Im really interested in this, Id really like to see this if this stuff is more efficient.

      Peace,
      Gummiegorilla.

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        #48
        One of the best written DIYs I have seen of this site

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          #49
          Originally posted by Gummiegorilla View Post
          I-12 , also known as HC-12a is actually kind of dangerous. I think in 1997 one of the companies that makes this stuff (OZ Technology Inc.) had to apply for an exemption of hazardous materials to the DOT because the chemical properties that it has resemble more of an engine starting fluid than a refrigerant. Although it looks good on the tech sheet, and from what your telling me it works pretty well, I still think that a good amount of companies coming out with synthetic hydrocarbon refrigerants to replace r-12 & r-134a are using propane in the ingredients. Im not certain if that would make your system somewhat flammable in any way or affect the seals. Does it have a flammability waring on the side of the can ? Also could you post back up in a couple months to let us know what kind of vent temps your getting?Im really interested in this, Id really like to see this if this stuff is more efficient.

          Peace,
          Gummiegorilla.
          I shall keep you updated. However, 18 oz. of propane/butane is far less dangerous than the gasoline that all cars are carrying around. just to put perspective on the flammability concerns.

          I did a decent amount of research into the ES refrigerants before I decided to order it. The info that I found is generally positive, its compatible with ester or pag oil, and doesn't become "the black death" if it is accidentally mixed with a different refrigerant.
          http://www.hondanews.com/releases/19...d-introduction

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            #50
            Could you kindly tell me what the drill is used for in this project? Cleaning the compressor?

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              #51
              Originally posted by BBuncky2 View Post
              Could you kindly tell me what the drill is used for in this project? Cleaning the compressor?
              The only thing that i used the drill for in this project was for removing light screws i.e. turn signals, glove box and taking apart the evaporator plastic cover hope this helps.

              Peace,
              Gummiegorilla.

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                #52
                So i was talking with my dad about the retro fit ( my dad works on a/c systems ) and how i needed some new pag oil for the system

                He went to the supply house where he normally gets a/c stuff from and asked them what to get and they supplied him with ultra 32-3maf polyol ester oil. My dad normally works with household a/c systems so i wanted to double check this first before i put it in.

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                  #53
                  Originally posted by Tippey764 View Post
                  So i was talking with my dad about the retro fit ( my dad works on a/c systems ) and how i needed some new pag oil for the system

                  He went to the supply house where he normally gets a/c stuff from and asked them what to get and they supplied him with ultra 32-3maf polyol ester oil. My dad normally works with household a/c systems so i wanted to double check this first before i put it in.
                  Well I'm not to certain about the 32-3maf polyol ester oil, I believe it might have a higher viscosity than the pag 45 I used. Although its an ester oil and should be completely compatible with both the pag used in r134a systems and the mineral oils used in R12 systems I just wouldn't want to risk it. If your already going through the trouble of doing all this work for the retrofit only to see a component fail in the long run because of a $9.00 bottle of oil would be a shame. But on the plus side if all goes well and the system works just as well as it normally would then you've just added another product to the compatability list of our systems I personally would stick with the pag. Hope this helps.

                  Peace,
                  Gummiegorilla.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by SSMAccord View Post
                    However, 18 oz. of propane/butane is far less dangerous than the gasoline that all cars are carrying around
                    Touche , I think Im going to pick up some of this and run it and see what happens

                    Peace,
                    Gummiegorilla.

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                      #55
                      I was speaking to the mechanic at my job, he told me when learning the trade he once place the r134 can on the high pressure side of the ac system while trying to refill.......

                      He showed me his forarm were he had gotten burnt from the can exploding and told me that thing threw him from what people told him at least 5 feet in the air, 3 feet back.........when he came tooo he didnt know where and what had just happen.

                      I couldnt stop laughing .........but its something that i didnt know was that a little can of r134 coulld pack a punch that strong..

                      So this is a great write up , and make sure you try and avoiding all cost of that little can exploding lol

                      Check Out My Work In Progess . . . . .

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                        #56
                        To the OP "Excellent write-up/guide!"

                        Whats interesting about the EnviroSafe12 is its ignition temp/point is higher then that of 134a. A can of 134a will ignite before an EnviroSafe12 Refrigerant will. EnviroSafe12 is also supposed to be more efficient/colder then true R12. Also for the people who don't want to convert to 134a, you can substitute genuine R12 for Freeze12 (which is considerably cheaper, and doesn't have any legality issues). Sure the efficiency of Freeze12 compared to r12 may only be 80% but its much better then 134a which with a compressor designed for r12 probably only has an efficiency of 60% compared.

                        Note: EnviroSafe products contain Hydro Carbons, which in some states and countries is illegal to use in an automotive cooling system.
                        PT3/6 Development Thread | My 1991 LX Coupe | DIY: 90-93 Tcu Fix

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                          #57
                          I just spent the ENTIRE weekend working on this, and it seems you forgot a few parts that I'm sure anyone doing this DIY would appreciate. I'll explain them later, as I'm at work.

                          Fuck, I'm tired...

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                            #58
                            Well...I Tried. Here's my account.

                            I again don't have time to do a full write-up of the missing pieces, so I'll just report on how my retrofit went:

                            -I failed. The system now holds pressure, I confirmed, but it won't accept more than a half a can of refrigerant. When I connected a can as per the instructions, the pressure on the low side caused the meter to show the highest pressure possible. Then when I turned the car on and got the compressor going, the pressure at the low side went down a little and then stopped. The pressure at the high side went up a tiny amount and stopped as well.

                            I suspect the compressor is to blame. Luckily I work for DENSO and can get a new compressor for a lower price.

                            -It took me 4 days to complete, working about 3-8 hours on it each day. It was grueling. It was absolutely a super long and drawn-out process. Never had I undertaken a job this complex before in the engine bay. Never had I removed a Power Steering Pump, Alternator, or Compressor before. It took me 2 hours to get the Alternator and Power Steering Pump back into the car and tighten the belts!
                            -I had to install two new lines that were removed years ago when I had my system evacuated and disabled.



                            Here's some advice for all of you thinking about taking this job on:

                            -Do NOT allow the complete and exhaustive nature of these instructions fool you into thinking that you can do this job quickly! Unless you're extremely mechcanically inclined, It's going to take you more than a day to do this job right!
                            -It was only recently that our cars' generation became 20 years old. If your AC system has never been touched in that time, it's likely these lines are pretty well seized together. You'll need a good pair of vice grips, possibly a torch, and some patience.
                            -When putting the lines back in, you may have to do some bending or "phanaygling" of the lines to get them back the way they were. That's okay but just be careful!
                            -When I took my DENSO Compressor apart, it had 6 plates inside, and not just 4. It was only when I looked at the previous picture did I see that Gummigorilla's compressor seemed to retain those extra two plates under the upper and lower cover. On my compressor, they came right off.
                            -A set of ratcheting wrenches and line wrenches make this job SO much easier! I was lucky to have a friend with these tools! If you don't know what these are, Google them. You'll be glad you have them!
                            -Make sure your ratchet set includes some 12-point sockets. You'll undoubtedly have some rusted screws. These things want to become rounded very quickly.

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                              #59
                              I can ASSURE you that I wasn't "missing" any pieces. I'm sorry to hear that you had such a difficult time doing this retrofit. I pulled this off in a day and I'm not "extremely" mechanically inclined. Just that fact that it took you 2 hours to install the power steering and alternator explains quite a bit. Please don't go putting down my DIY and intimidating others away from this project just because you couldn't figure out word for word instructions. If you had any difficulty beyond your level of mechanical inclination you could of easily shot me a PM and i would have been more that happy to assist you through it. Also you shouldn't be "phanaygling" any of the components, be it the A/C lines or anything else because you're compromising the integrity of that particular part.
                              Peace,
                              Gummiegorilla.
                              Last edited by Gummiegorilla; 08-18-2011, 03:47 PM.

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                                #60
                                Very nice write up! I've never converted a system but have done plenty of A/C jobs / component replacements, system flushes, etc. Looks like you have all the steps covered here.

                                I saw a few comments on r134a vs. r12. When converted, an r134a system will always produce warmer "cold" air than the r12 system did. R12 is more efficient and utilizes a smaller condenser. All cars from the factory with r134a have larger condensers than the same size car 5 years before that came with r12. This gets the cold air temps of the r134a system back down in the low 40's where they should be. The r134a compressors are designed slightly different also but the main difference is in the condenser.

                                IF anyone could find a larger condenser that would fit our cars we could get our temps back really cold but it would probably require custom A/C lines. I imagine any newer compact car's condenser would work if you had the lines custom made.

                                That said, r134a isn't necessarily inferior to r12. r12 is more efficient, r134a is more enviro-friendly. Depends on your priorities.

                                One thing to add: Look up the target low side pressure and post it in the diy. You may also look up the proper high side ranges so people can watch the compressor operation and make sure it's building pressure healthily. Just an idea.
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                                Bisimoto header before & after dyno

                                1993 10th Anniversary: F22a6, H23IM, Bisimoto header, Custom mandrel exhaust, 5spd swap.

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