** Synthetic or Conventional Oil Write up **

[bcjammerx]

The main man from spoon has some suggestions on oil and oil changing, tranny oil changes for your honda...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PCbdTO97bA

THAT was the BEST vid I have seen in a looong time...VERY good advice!

damn I need to replace my tranny fluid...sheeez

[benjerman112]

friend suggested i use Mobil 1 10w-30 and i have been for a few yrs now.

[joemomma]

The main man from spoon has some suggestions on oil and oil changing, tranny oil changes for your honda...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PCbdTO97bA

i have tha video

[Grimsta]

Wow, what a good way to spread myths. I have 2 big problems with this.

1st: Synthetic oils DO NOT have a bunch of additives to them. They are synthetic, which means by nature they are made from chemiclas. IT IS THE CONVENTIONAL oils that have all the additives added to them. OILS ARE NOT ALL MADE FROM THE SAME BASE. A TRUE synthetic oil like Royal Purple or Eneos is made from a PAO base stock which is sythetic by nature. I can see why if you looked at the contents you would think they were additives. Redline is a pure Ester based oil which is even higher up in the scale from PAOs. Where conventional oils are all Group 1,2,3. CASTROL SYNTEC & MOBIL 1 are NOT true full synthetics. Green Castrol used to be, but that has been discontinued. Castrol and Mobil are both Group 3 base stocks with heavy additive packs which allows them to "claim" synthetic status. But it still doesnt change where the base of the oil comes from. So this is where the MYTH of Synthetics having heavy additives comes from. However since these oils are not TRUE full synthetics that is not true for oils that ARE true full synthetics

2nd: The chemicals and "additives" in sythetics (if you still want to call them that after the above post) is not what causes oil leaks in older cars. What DOES cause the leaks is the years of abuse on the car and the old tired seals. Convential oils run thicker and with the age of the car, can accumulate gel, sludge, build up (whatever you want to call it) around seals. A real synthetic will maintain the same viscosity over a longer range. Which means its thinner when colder and doesnt liquify as easily when hotter like conventional oils. With it being thinner and the cleaning properties of these oils also, they flow through small gaps easier and clean out deposits that have built up, thus resulting in an oil leak. It has absolutely nothing to do with the oil and all about the cars seals. Oils dont cause shrink and swell. Time and wear does. And an old car with halfway decent seals will be just fine. Now i will post up all the following oil analysis as I have in other forums

[Grimsta]

Many years ago when the 1st syn oils came out, they were almost pure PAO oil. One thing straight PAO does is cause seal shrinkage...leading to the urban legend that syn oils cause leaks. All the major oil companies fixed this very quickly by adding esters to the oil. Ester makes seals swell and counteracts the effect of the PAO. That, plus other additives in syn oils, have completely eliminated any seal problems. The only thing you may see on a high mileage motor with poor seals is syn oils do a very good job of dissolving all deposits. Some of these deposits might be the only thing left keeping the seal from leaking



First up is Royal Purple:

Royal Purple is a "boutique" oil in that it's a Group IV & Group V blend of PAO and ester base stocks. Their consumer line of motor oil is API certified to SL specifications, with the exception of the 20W-50 which is a SJ spec...their XPR racing line is not API/ILSAC certified. In addition, the 5W-20, 5W-30, and 10W-30 are rated API energy conserving. I do not recommend you use the XPR line in a street car...it lacks many of the additives you want in a daily driven machine. In this case, "racing" is not better

Royal Purple oils are more slanted toward the hi-performance/racing crowd in general and as a result, the additive pack contains less detergents and anti-oxidants than what you will see in German Castrol or Redline. Unless you do oil analysis, a 5000 mile change interval will keep the oil from degrading to the point where it's not doing it's job....IMO, a 8000 mile OCI would be safe for this oil if city driving is what you primarily do. The filter will need to be changed at the 4000 mile point for an 8K OCI.

Royal Purple's color comes from dye used in the formulation; German Castrol was green a couple of years ago (elves?) for the same reason. All oils (including syn oils) are refined clear...dye is added for marketing. Moly comes in two forms (maybe more)...inorganic MoS2 which must be in a carrier (suspension) to flow and an organic type which is soluble in oil. Royal Purple uses the organic moly as a friction modifier and actually contains less organic moly than Redline does. This type of moly will not clog up your filter.

I would like to point out something you will see on oil data sheets that's fairly common concerning viscosity:

Royal Purple 5W-30
40 deg C - 65.3 centistrokes
100 deg C - 11.0 centistrokes

Royal Purple 10W-30
40 deg C - 70.3 centistrokes
100 deg C - 10.7 centistrokes

The 5W oil is a bit thinner than the 10W at cold temps as expected, but the 5W is actually thicker than the 10W at operating temp. This is due to the friction modifiers used in the oil and illustrates another point: Oil never thickens up when hot, it always thins to the SAE viscosity spec shown in the 2nd number on the API stamp.

Auto and manual transmission oils live a much easier life than motor oil...they do not have to deal with combustion by-products. As a result, most will perform very well. Royal Purple's manual transmission oil is excellent...most syn oils of this type are. Redline is another excellent choice.

Auto tranny oil is actually hydraulic oil. The #1 killer is heat....all of them (DEXRON III spec) will perform well if you have a good cooler. Adding a transmission filter pre-cooler is also a very good idea, as is a temp gauge. Royal Purple, Redline, Castrol, and Valvoline are excellent choices.

Royal Purple 80W-90 and Redline 75W-90 LSD oils work very well in a LSD that's in good shape. Keep in mind, both contain the friction modifiers necessary for the LSD...Redline 75W-90 NS does not have the modifiers. However, if the LSD has a lot of wear, either of these syn LSD oils may cause excessive slip. In this case, the Ford 75W-90 may be a better choice...you will also need the Ford friction modifier.

http://www.royalpurple.com/techa/faqsa.html#mo4
http://www.royalpurple.com/prodsa/rpmoa.html
http://www.royalpurple.com/techrp/synerleca.html
http://www.royalpurple.com/prodsa/mgeara.html
http://www.royalpurple.com/prodsa/rpmoa.html



Next up is Castrol SynTec European Formula 0W-30 (aka German Castrol, it must say made in Germany on the back):

It’s API Service Category SL, SJ. It exceeds ACEA A3 requirements and meets ILSAC GF-3/GF-2 emission system capability requirements. This oil far exceeds API Service Category SF, SG requirements.

Here's the data sheet

This data sheet is provides minimum info…I’ll add a few pertinent figures:
40 deg C viscosity (from analysis): 72.9 cSt
Velocity Index (from analysis): 166
Pour Point (from Material Safety Sheet): -40 deg F
Flash Point (from Material Safety Sheet): 437 deg F
A basic volatility test revealed: a 9% loss at 4 hours and 17.5% loss at 8 hours at ~340 deg F.

Here’s an oil analysis from another user on a virgin oil sample (in PPM):

Iron..................3
Silicon...............4
Sodium............14
Potassium……....12
Moly................<5
Phosphorus…...903
Zinc.............1157
Calcium.........1941
Magnesium......770

Gas Chromatograph and Fourier Transform Infrared (FTIR) analysis revealed the base stock appears to be a blend of mostly 4 cSt PAO with either 6 cSt or 8 cSt cuts. The oil is comprised of Group IV PAO base stock (plus additives). The above analysis did not show any esters in this oil, but a different, more thorough EI and CI Mass Spectrometer analysis did reveal esters of a type not seen in other oils.

Why would I use this oil? Its very good

- German Castrol is a true synthetic oil…no Group I, II, or III base stock at all. IMO this is important for a turbo car considering the heat produced by the turbo. I did not want any problems keeping my SP61 turbo cool (it’s oil cooled only) and avoid any chance of the oil coking on engine shutdown.
- The oil flows very well cold, getting the oil up to the cams and to the bearing quickly where it’s needed the most. German Castrol is on the thick side for a 0W-30…the 40 deg C and 100 deg C (operating temp) cSt numbers confirm this.
- At engine operating temperature, this oil gives me excellent pressure at idle (10-15 psi) and at 3000 rpm (45-50 psi)
- The Viscosity Index is high, indicating that this oil will resist viscosity degradation over time. It appears to have few viscosity modifiers as additives…this means the base oil itself handles the rated viscosity range very well. It also means a higher percentage of actual oil vs additives.
- The oil has low volatility and a high flash point, indicating consumption from oil evaporation will be minimal. This is typical for synthetic oils.
- German Castrol has an excellent additive pack. Well formulated detergents and anti-wear additives. My only wish is that it had a bit more moly
- Not scientific, but my valve train is quieter running this oil…definite difference from Mobil 1 5W-30 and Amsoil 0W-30 I’ve tried. It’s quite possible the thicker nature of the German Castrol is the reason.

I also run a quart of 100% ester based oil (VP Racing RS530…another excellent oil) as a seal conditioner. The ester helps to keep the seals soft and keep the motor clean. This is probably not necessary due to the formulation of German Castrol, but it sure won’t hurt either

German Castrol can run at an 8,000 mile change interval…a PAO base stock oil will easily go this long. Based on other results others have seen with this oil doing the same thing, it should last until the 12-15,000 mile range.

The only place I know of in the US to get the German Castrol is at AutoZone…you may have to ask for it or special order it. It only comes in a 0W-30…any other Castrol SynTec you see on the shelf is a Group III base stock…it is not a true synthetic oil. In Canada, it’s my understanding is WalMart and Canadian Tire sell the German Castrol. This oil would be especially good for those cold winters up North

[Grimsta]

Next is the regarded as "High and mighty" Mobil 1:

The only reason I'm doing this is 1) Mobil 1 is a very popular oil and 2) Mobil 1 is not entirely what it claims to be.

Mobil 1 HM 10W-30 is API Service Category SL,SJ,CF. It meets ACEA A3/B3 and A3/B4 requirements. Mobil 1 HM 10W-40 is API Service Category SL,SJ,CF....it does not meet/list ACEA specifications.

Here is the MSDS

Both oils are on par with what you would expect for their given grades. Both have excellent flash points and pour points...the 10W-30 is very good pour point wise, it's good down to -54 deg C. IMO, the 10W-30 would be a great all year oil...there really is no point changing to the 10W-40 for the summer. the 10W-30 will perform very well even during the summer heat. Both oils have a robust additive pack.

Mobil 1 uses Group III + alphaolefins (AN) base oils including polyalphaolefins (PAO)...however, the primary base stock is Group III.


Quote:
In 2006, the results of a gas chromatography test on Mobil 1 5w-30 EP were posted by an industry expert on the popular motor oil discussion website BITOG. It showed the oil to be primarily composed of a less expensive, Group III processed mineral oil. Until this time, Mobil 1 was believed to be a true synthetic, utilizing a Group IV (PAO) base stock. The release of this information has led to a backlash against Exxon Mobil's lubricant products in many automotive communities. Ironically, in 1999, Mobil fought Castrol's change in formulation to a Group III base stock in motor oils being marketed as fully synthetic. Mobil claimed that Castrol was deceiving their customer base, while degrading their products. The National Advertising Division of the Council of Better Business Bureaus eventually ruled that Castrol could continue to market their SynTec line as a fully synthetic motor oil. Exxon Mobil currently refuses to comment on the primary base stock of their Mobil 1 series of oils. This has only added further confusion over the exact definition of the term "synthetic oil."

So far, I have not seen any further info on Mobil 1 oils that contradicts the above quote. I have seen this US Patent application by Exxon Mobil:

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...DN/20060211581

The cliff notes on this is Exxon wants to patent the process to utilize Group III base stock with AN and PAO modifiers for use as "synthetic" base stock...one would assume this means their Mobil 1 line of oils. Since PAO and AN are rather expensive, the majority of the base stock is very likely to be Group III...by definition not a true synthetic oil. Appears to me they want to sell us oil marketed as a synthetic, at synthetic prices and increase their profit margin....I guess last year's record profit for any US company wasn't good enough

Keep in mind, Group III base stock does not make Mobil 1 a bad oil...it's actually very good. Take a look at the above pics...very clean...no deposits at all. It justs chaffs my tail pipe to pay synthetic prices and get a Group III oil...especially when Exxon will not come clean about it. Pennzoil Platinum is also using a Group III...the company makes no secret about it. In fact, their Platinum line is among the best there is due to the technology behind refining it.



Now saving the best for last. Personally I use Nippon Eneos 0w50 now in my race Surpa:
Quality grade RG/API SM
SAE viscosity grade 0W-50
Appearance Orange
Density (15°C), g/cm3 0.847
Flash point (COC), °C 232
Kinematic viscosity (40°C), mm2/s 104
(100°C), mm2/s 18.0
Viscosity index 192
Pour point, °C –45.0
TAN, mgKOH/g 2.3
TBN (HCl), mgKOH/g 6.4
Color (ASTM) L3.0

here is the MSDS, http://www.eneos.us/documents/MSDS_0W50.pdf
Unfortunately there is no data for some parameters i would like to know. I'll work on getting an oil sample of my used oil.
I was able to dig up a virgin oil analysis (VAO) done on the Eneos 0W-50:

Aluminum:1
Chromium:0
Iron:1
Copper:0
Lead:0
Tin:0
Molybdenum:42
Nickel:0
Manganese:0
Silver:0
Titanium:0
Potassium:2
Boron:59
Silicon:3
Sodium:7
Calcium:1811
Magnesium:20
Phosphorus:662
Zinc:790
Barium:0

SuS @210*F: 85.2
Flashpoint *F: 425
TBN: 8.5

It appears the 0W-50 is a PAO base stock with ester added as a seal conditioner. The add pack seems a bit light for a street driven car...though, the TBN was higher than the advertised 6.4. This oil is thinner than the other 50W multigrades on the market, meaning it will flow better, but not near as well as a 0W or 5W-30. Could be due to Eneos' focus on racing (like Royal Purple)...this oil does not look well suited to extended drain intervals, but should be fine for at least 5000 miles. Which is why I use it for racing. For a street driven car you would want to use Eneos' 5w40

In the track car, the engine temp however did run 10 degrees cooler overall taking the average temp from several events before the switch to Eneos and then after the switch. The Supra also maintained 5psi of oil press. higher when it was HOT!

So whether you need the 0w50 or 5w50 for racing, or 5w40 for your street car I have both available. The 50weights go for $9-$10 a quart where the 40weight is $7.

[Grimsta]

AMSOIL is another very good oil. They provide a good amount of info on their website. To prevent posting too much here's a brief discussion I had with someone who said they didnt like Amsoil

My amsoil had done 7,500 miles & after oil analysis it had a TBN of less than one..... So I replaced the oil, 6K later another analysis TBN Less than one... pretty poor for a oil that proclaims to give 24K service, I contacted amsoil who suggested there was somthing wrong with the car & suggested I have it looked at, I pressed them a little for some suggestions as to which particular area might require investigation & after to'ing & fro'ing emails they offered me a settlement with a gagging clause. I didn't even bother to respond to that.

In my little world you use spanners & knowledge to repair cars, not cheque books & court rooms :beard:

Well the place to look at the TBN would be in the virgin analysis. If your taking it out afterwards, that oil's already been used and abused and of course the TBN would be low then. Here is what TBN is:
TBN determines how effective the control of acids formed will be during the combustion process. The higher the TBN, the more effective it is in suspending wear-causing contaminants and reducing the corrosive effects of acids over an extended period of time.So that would lead you to think this oil is very easily contaminable right? Well no, the oil has already been contaminated with use, so ofcourse that number would be low. If you have a low TBN on your used sample, you should look at TAN.
TAN (Total Acid number) is the inverse measurement of TBN. It is covered under ASTM D 664 and refers to the level of acid contamination caused by combustion.
You really need a virgin sample to determine what's going on. If the virgin sample has a high TBN like Eneos and then ends up with 1 AND your TAN is high in the used sample i'd say it looks like you have some piston ring issues which would've made AMSOil correct


Oh and I dont care who says what, no oil ever has a 24K service life. The longest something should go for is 10K, and thats even kind of pushing it.

[accordaffair]

wow lots to read

[foamypirate]

That was excellent. I just read the whole thing.

[Grimsta]

Thanks, I hope it helped clear some stuff up.

I'm a direct distributor of Eneos if anyone is interested in any. But I alse deal Royal Purple, AMSoil & Redline

[blue93cb]

Yeah it cleared up some stuff...literally. I swapped in a JDM H22A into my CB and originally used conventional Castrol and after the first oil change switched to Mobil 1 Synthetic. 5 days later I'm driving and smoke pouring out of the exhaust with a burnt oil smell. I guess the seals either were not that healthy or the deposits on them came off with the synthetic. And I had heard that before but didn't think I would have a problem with the H22. Oh well.

[bcjammerx]

Grimsta,
you mention german/euro castrol being very good and true synthetic (pao base stock)....but how likely are we to find that in our local stores and auto stores such as wal-mart, orielly, autozone, etc...

Also, is a 0w50 or 0w really a good idea for our engines? 50 seems awfully thick and will 0w protect well? What, if any, are the dangers/harms of running such a low viscosity oil in our cb7's? Or is it that those dangers only associated with conventional oils?

What viscosity would you recommend for a normal DD? Or a moderately built engine? Is it correct that you could use the same oil, if you wanted, that you run in your supra in a DD cb7 with no ill effects?

Also, while mobile one is not a "true" synthetic in that it has base stock oil in it, does it not still protect very well and longer than conventional? Would pure synthetic (the affor mentioned castrols) protect for longer?

On the "Group IV (PAO) base stock", is this naming of base stocks similar to transmission fluid naming--->I.E. when I worked at Toyota we had two types of tranny fluid...Type III tranny oil which is not synthetic and then type IV which was synthetic (course reading about mobile one make me question that too). Do you know much about transmission fluid in the regards of actually being synthetic?

I use mobile one and change my filter and top off every 5k, with a d&f at 15,000 miles, would the castrol go longer/safer? I assume it would being of "higher stock". I like to play it safe, but sometimes I wonder if my mobile-1 could go longer, what do you think?

[breeziebabyyy]

I use full synthetic oil and its 5x30.. it does wonders

[Grimsta]

Sorry for the REALLY delayed answer, I dont really get on here anymore.

In a DD CB7, just go w/ a 5w30 or 10w40, dont use a 0W50 in your DD, especially not an CB7. Mobil is a good oil, just not a true "sythetic" as they claim, thats all. Continue as you are

[F22HB]

<thread>Bradd Penn</thread>