08-09 Civic Si Vs. 90 H22 Accord

[fatboy1185]

The problem is that even with a good driver, the low 14 second Accord is NOT the rule. Not saying it can't be done, because I know it can, but it isn't that common.

The same concept can be applied to the person driving the Civic SI as well. I've seen multiple SI's run mid to HIGH 15's at the drag strip. I know a Stock SI is capable of running a high 14 with the proper driver and tires, but does every owner run that time? Not even close.

As for the people claiming to "smash" on car A and "smoke" car B, I'm sure you have beaten that car one time or another. Doesn't mean it will happen every time.

Every time a person posts up a kill story, I know it will turn into one of these discussions.

[TypeG]

i wish i could put all of you on youtube, lol. later.

[jhondayaaj]

Ykno whats really funny, Is I smash on 06+ si's and RSX-s's, along with s2k's and swapped b series hatches, both EG and EK, DCtegs, ls-V DA's, etc in my JDM H22a powered 92 EX coupe, WITH ABS, and the only power adders being a SRI, and the KR header, coupled with a weak-ass crush bent 2.0" exhaust....

All at 6k+ in elevation....

Sorry man, I was a H-T for about 3 years, Ive driven multiple multiple SI's, and was even the head of Front Range Hondas HFP program. The new Si's, are wack. Plain and simple.

NOW /thread.

swapped civics with stock b18c motor (nontype r)with no mods aren't that quick. stock ls vtec with no internal work done is not that fast either. have u raced a civic or crx with b20vtec, stage 4 cams, 13.5:1 compression ratio and bored out and sleeved and all hooked up? sure u beat ls vtec with no internals (gotta b specific), but remember that they aren't as fast as u think.

[owequitit]

Two vs. one. Sorry, I win this round!

WTF are you talking about?

The same concept can be applied to the person driving the Civic SI as well. I've seen multiple SI's run mid to HIGH 15's at the drag strip. I know a Stock SI is capable of running a high 14 with the proper driver and tires, but does every owner run that time? Not even close.

As for the people claiming to "smash" on car A and "smoke" car B, I'm sure you have beaten that car one time or another. Doesn't mean it will happen every time.

Every time a person posts up a kill story, I know it will turn into one of these discussions.

Yeah, it can. The problem is that the 14 second Si is more common than the 14 second CB7. You can find STOCK ones running in the low 14's. Not to mention that as you get more and more into the low 14's the Si's REALLY begin to outnumber the CB7's. Plus, no matter how much you want to deny it, your car required mods to get there. Substantial mods at that. It is no secret how easy it is to extract power from a K20 vs an H22.

I own both, I drive both, and relatively lightly modded H22 (in good running condition) versus 100% bone stock Si (down to the paper air filter), the Si is faster most of the time. Period. The average swapped CB7 is as fast as the average 5th gen Prelude. Considering how badly I have pulled on them WITH BOLT ONS, I know what to expect.

And actually having a clue about both cars, you can bet your ass I am going to raise the when these little fucktard douche nozzles start spewing about how their 2" crush bent H22 with a short ram walks every Si they see by lengths and lengths. It is even worse that I can tell by the way they talk that their cars most likely run like shit, and worse yet the cars they are racing probably either run like shit, or the little 16 year olds driving them don't have a clue how to actually drive. That is further substantiated by the guy who claims he beats every manner of swapped EG/EK, which we all know is bullshit, because if you look at them sideways, they are running 13's or better.

I have maintained on here many times that a bolt on H22 CB7 and a stock Si would make a good race. And I STILL maintain that position. But fuck the people who think their H22 Accord is going to walk any Si that comes along, no matter what. They are just fucking stupid.

How true was this statement lol

Hate to say I told ya so.

[fatboy1185]

WTF are you talking about?

I said the average SI put's down around 170whp, you said the average SI puts down around 170whp. He said something about 197hp. I said 2 vs 1.

[CB7Man]

4th Gen Accord Coupe LX (Automatic) 2851 lbs
6th Gen Si Coupe 2895 lbs
4th Gen Prelude VTEC 2932 lbs
5th Gen Prelude Base 3052

I dont see where people put that a car weighs less than another.
I took the Si's weight directly from Honda, my CB used to be an automatic, those trannys are ungodly heavy.
I took my CB's weight from the sticker in the doorjamb. My CB is manual now, with a smaller tranny case than USDM. Sure the engine weighs more, but not by much.
Overall I've lightened the car with my swap.
The other two I took from a Prelude Forum.

I pull away from stock VTEC ludes.
I pull less with I/H/E VTEC ludes.
My automatic pulled on Auto 5th gen ludes.


Calling a H22 CB7 "Heavily Modified" is about as retarded as it gets.
There is no "Heavily Modified" about a simple bolt in procedure.
So a Prelude S with an H22 in it is "Heavily Modified"? Never came in it!
No and neither is putting a K24 in an RSX.
I have P/S, Ice Cold A/C and Cruise Control. Same as the stock Si.

I dont care about the warranty, I trust my work, warrantys are for work you dont trust.
Just shows he needs to make payments to think hes cool?
Refinement? Not much, its a primitive internal combustion engine.

My JDM H22A is rated at 197 Hp @ 6800 161.5 ft/lbs @ 5500
Si's K20 is rated at 197 Hp @7800 139 ft/lbs @ 6100

My H22 has no balance shaft belt, rumored to gain power
K20 doesnt have one either, evens that out
I make power sooner, my gearing is perfect for my powerband and rev limiter.
I would like to get tires that are supposed to go on my car, I have HUGE economy tires on my car.

So pretty much again the only thing the Si has going for it is gearing I guess, which as we found isnt all that far from mine.

With proper tires on my car, the information I've collected provides that my Stock Car will beat this other Stock Car.

Im definately going to look for a rematch lol

Maybe I can get another 20 page Essay response by writting this

[h22cb719]

Wow, thats a lot of quotes, so Ill just go about it like this:

Quit it: Nobody said that h22 CB's were/are the fastest cars ever made or any other words similar to that you want to put in my mouth. Also, grats on a quick D-powered Eg, sheits not uncommon at all. Not over here anyway. Id give you a cookie, but it'd be difficult over the internet.... contact info for said cookie?? lulz

King James: No bullshit, and honestly Im not even a big fan of bench racing on internet forums like we're doing now. Im simply stating the facts guy, deal with it. Bottom line is Ive been in the Honda game for quite a while now, am a certified Honda Tech, and know what Im doing and have done. Owned more than a handful of various Hondas and other cars including DSMs, Rx's, MR2's, etc, built them all, and turned every single wrench doin such. Ive built customer cars, street tuned cars, and even tuned on the dyno. Im not some idiot who things bolt-ons make a car fast, and by no means do I think my weaksauce H22 powered CB is "wicked-fast" or any other ricer word combos you want to throw in there. Thinking the new si's are wack, is my opinion. so again, deal with it!

jhonda: Ya yer right, Ill give you that. JDM b18c's in VXs arent uber quick, and at this alt, with a good driver you would see MAYBE a 14.5 from it with I/H/E, and a set of JDM ITR cams. Ls-Vs on the other hand, while not super fast either, are definately more potent motor/motor than a JDM B18C(non-ITR). The last LS-v I built was a B18B bottom, stock slugs and rods, Spoon 2-layer HG, P72 head, SIR-g cams, removed butterflies, and a true hytech header into a custom cat-less 2.5" exh. On Neptune RTP, it put 195.8 uncorrected to the wheels, at 6k+ elevation. Not to mention, this was in a stripped-down ef hatch, caged and purpose built as a SCCA/NASA track car, and a weekend fun car.

Then again, Im a fan of LS-V's....

I did a low-dollar B20/vtec in my old EG dx hatch, PCT spec A/M pistons, P72 head, JDM ITR cams, S2 mani, and JDM ITR header, Blue-top DSM 450's and E-85. On Neptune it made 212 uncorrrected at 6k+ elevation. It was a fun car, but due to a lack of baffling in the stock B20 oil pan coupled with the NASA racing I was doing, I spun the #4 rod bearing, and parted it. I loved the torque of it, especially with the si trans, sheit was great!

My only point, is that Im not some idiot simply saying I can beat this and that, and the cars I have beaten are the way it is. I simply know what Im doing, and know how to drive.

It is what it is, believe me or not. You're all welcome to stop thru CO anytime and witness the Mile-high Honda scene for yourselves....

[jhondayaaj]

I was mentioning about stock lsvtecs. Trust me, even with a b18b block and pr3 head, and some usdm itr cams with type r piston TUNED like u said is fast. I was talking about stock motors. I know how a lsv run when mildly built and heavily built and stock. I just wanted to b clear that those lsvtecs that were raced if it were modified or stock. That's it.

[h22cb719]

stock lsv's? Everything in the above mentione ls-v is stock....save for a HG and a set of ARP rod bolts. By stock Im meaning factory parts BTW.


My buddies ls-v DA is a stock B18B bottom, P72 head, us P72 cams, stock HG, S2 I/M, DC "JDM" 4-1 header, and SRI, with a YS1 trans to boot. Its all pretty freshly rebuilt to, just back to stock specs (re-honed cylinders, new factory rings, new factory bearings) and he's using a JDM P30, which we all know is nasty from the box anyway...LOL. So, basically other than the i.man and header its stock, in my eyes anyway.

dammit, now Im gettin the b-series itch again....

[Raf99]

Congrats on the win yo. I had the same race actually but we were rolling in 2nd already. He was a bit behind me though and I heard him crack on it and so I did too. I looked out my drivers side window and expected to see this car coming up but there was no car. We were even for a bit (his nose near my rear wheel) and then he slowely dropped off. I thought to myself "I thought they were way faster" and shrugged. I'm runnin a H22A I/H/E (catback exhaust, magnaflow setup, 2.25"). I was just happy to keep up with the guy

No comment on the debate.

[owequitit]

4th Gen Accord Coupe LX (Automatic) 2851 lbs
6th Gen Si Coupe 2895 lbs
4th Gen Prelude VTEC 2932 lbs
5th Gen Prelude Base 3052

I dont see where people put that a car weighs less than another.
I took the Si's weight directly from Honda, my CB used to be an automatic, those trannys are ungodly heavy.
I took my CB's weight from the sticker in the doorjamb. My CB is manual now, with a smaller tranny case than USDM. Sure the engine weighs more, but not by much.
Overall I've lightened the car with my swap.
The other two I took from a Prelude Forum.

1) Go put your car on a scale. According to Honda, my car weighed just over 2900lbs. In reality, it was just over 3,000lbs stock.

2) The manual trannies for these engines weigh 95lbs. The autos are about 130lbs. Yes, I weighed them.

So you saved about 30lbs by taking the tranny out (don't forget the auto tranny uses a lighter flexplat and no clutch, which adds nearly half the weight difference back in).

You also neglect that the H22 is heavier than the F22. I don't know by exactly how much, but IIRC, the camshafts alone are about 12lbs each. You also have the additional valvetrain mass, a closed deck block, slightly heavier pistons, a larger head casting, etc. More than likely, the H22 weighs around 30-40lbs more than the F22.

So, I am curious how you figure you lost weight with the H22. I don't think I did, and I did the same thing you did.

I pull away from stock VTEC ludes.
I pull less with I/H/E VTEC ludes.
My automatic pulled on Auto 5th gen ludes.

Good for you. So do I, what is your point?

I put 3 cars on a bolt on VTEC lude by 70. And I was 100% stock with VSA ON.

Calling a H22 CB7 "Heavily Modified" is about as retarded as it gets.
There is no "Heavily Modified" about a simple bolt in procedure.
So a Prelude S with an H22 in it is "Heavily Modified"? Never came in it!
No and neither is putting a K24 in an RSX.
I have P/S, Ice Cold A/C and Cruise Control. Same as the stock Si.

Well there is certainly retardation here, but it isn't on my side.

Swapping an engine is "heavily" modified. Period. Just like putting a small block in an S-10 is heavily modified, or putting a bigger engine in an airplane is heavily modified. It is considered "heavily modified," not because it was easy, but because it is significantly different than what the manufacturer intended. So yes, it IS heavily modified, and so would be putting a K24 in a Civic. Just like with the Prelude S. It is way outside the performance envelope of what Honda intended. It has smaller brakes, smaller tires, smaller roll bars, softer springs, possibly less chassis stiffening etc. Any time you put a part on a car that didn't come there, it is "modified." Do we need to consult the dictionary?

The ONLY thing you can to make a car more modified than a swap is to build that engine, or to hack the car to pieces and alter it completely structurally. You are trying to pretend you drove your car off the factory floor that way, which is just pure bullshit.

I have the same shit you mention, and my car IS heavily modified, by every definition in the English language.

I dont care about the warranty, I trust my work, warrantys are for work you dont trust.
Just shows he needs to make payments to think hes cool?
Refinement? Not much, its a primitive internal combustion engine.

Warranites are for piece of mind, and not having to pay for anything that breaks. I trust my work too, and I am willing to bet I have done a fair bit more of it than you have. But I don't HAVE to do it, I can do it if I WANT to. Besides, I still have the rest of the stuff and you don't. At the end of the day, your car is still a rattly loose 20 year old Accord, which is great, if that is what you want. But there are tons of reasons to own an Si, and an Si offers many things that a 20 year old Accord never can. However, your statement is spoken like someone who can't afford a payment...

My JDM H22A is rated at 197 Hp @ 6800 161.5 ft/lbs @ 5500
Si's K20 is rated at 197 Hp @7800 139 ft/lbs @ 6100

My H22 has no balance shaft belt, rumored to gain power
K20 doesnt have one either, evens that out
I make power sooner, my gearing is perfect for my powerband and rev limiter.
I would like to get tires that are supposed to go on my car, I have HUGE economy tires on my car.

Hey look everyone, he can quote the internet! How do you know you make power sooner? Do you have comparative dyno graphs? I can tell you for a FACT that the K20 is running 90+% of peak torque from 1800 RPM to just about 7K. I can also tell you from driving the car, that the K20 gets into the powerband quicker than the H22 does, so don't make the mistake of assuming that just because the torque peak is lower, you are making power sooner. That tells nothing of the curve...

Here is a cookie for you!

Balance shaft belt is worth 3HP in the top end (that's right, I know that too). And you should be informed that the K20Z3 does in fact have a balance shaft mechanism, so you might want to get your facts straight.

However, even with that 3HP, you are lucky if you are putting out what a STOCK Si puts to the wheels, just based on engine design and health (like I said, the K20's seem to be a little conservatively rated), and gearing.

So pretty much again the only thing the Si has going for it is gearing I guess, which as we found isnt all that far from mine.

Here you are revealing more ignorance of the topic at hand. 11%-34% LOWER gearing certainly is "all that far" from yours. What that says is, that even with less torque, and the Si gearing, the Si puts more torque to the wheels. Period. If you would like to see the math again, I would be happy to provide it...

With proper tires on my car, the information I've collected provides that my Stock Car will beat this other Stock Car.

Your car is not stock, and your tires aren't going to make that much of a difference...

Maybe I can get another 20 page Essay response by writting this

As long as you keep it up you will, and I GUARANTEE I will last longer.

[owequitit]

Wow, thats a lot of quotes, so Ill just go about it like this:

Quit it: Nobody said that h22 CB's were/are the fastest cars ever made or any other words similar to that you want to put in my mouth. Also, grats on a quick D-powered Eg, sheits not uncommon at all. Not over here anyway. Id give you a cookie, but it'd be difficult over the internet.... contact info for said cookie?? lulz

King James: No bullshit, and honestly Im not even a big fan of bench racing on internet forums like we're doing now. Im simply stating the facts guy, deal with it. Bottom line is Ive been in the Honda game for quite a while now, am a certified Honda Tech, and know what Im doing and have done. Owned more than a handful of various Hondas and other cars including DSMs, Rx's, MR2's, etc, built them all, and turned every single wrench doin such. Ive built customer cars, street tuned cars, and even tuned on the dyno. Im not some idiot who things bolt-ons make a car fast, and by no means do I think my weaksauce H22 powered CB is "wicked-fast" or any other ricer word combos you want to throw in there. Thinking the new si's are wack, is my opinion. so again, deal with it!

jhonda: Ya yer right, Ill give you that. JDM b18c's in VXs arent uber quick, and at this alt, with a good driver you would see MAYBE a 14.5 from it with I/H/E, and a set of JDM ITR cams. Ls-Vs on the other hand, while not super fast either, are definately more potent motor/motor than a JDM B18C(non-ITR). The last LS-v I built was a B18B bottom, stock slugs and rods, Spoon 2-layer HG, P72 head, SIR-g cams, removed butterflies, and a true hytech header into a custom cat-less 2.5" exh. On Neptune RTP, it put 195.8 uncorrected to the wheels, at 6k+ elevation. Not to mention, this was in a stripped-down ef hatch, caged and purpose built as a SCCA/NASA track car, and a weekend fun car.

Then again, Im a fan of LS-V's....

I did a low-dollar B20/vtec in my old EG dx hatch, PCT spec A/M pistons, P72 head, JDM ITR cams, S2 mani, and JDM ITR header, Blue-top DSM 450's and E-85. On Neptune it made 212 uncorrrected at 6k+ elevation. It was a fun car, but due to a lack of baffling in the stock B20 oil pan coupled with the NASA racing I was doing, I spun the #4 rod bearing, and parted it. I loved the torque of it, especially with the si trans, sheit was great!

My only point, is that Im not some idiot simply saying I can beat this and that, and the cars I have beaten are the way it is. I simply know what Im doing, and know how to drive.

It is what it is, believe me or not. You're all welcome to stop thru CO anytime and witness the Mile-high Honda scene for yourselves....

The fact you are comparing modified vs stock would be a good place to start...

Also, how are your "facts" better than mine? How do you explain the similar shit that has gone down in my Si, and the fact that my car is pretty much the same as yours, and my Si is still faster???

[CB7Nub]

Two vs. one. Sorry, I win this round!

FYI, I was a talking crank power not wheel power.

[h22cb719]

Driver skill, altitude, etc.

And if your reading comprehension skills were on point you'd see my valid response.

JIC, and to quote myself:My only point, is that Im not some idiot simply saying I can beat this and that, and the cars I have beaten are the way it is. I simply know what Im doing, and know how to drive.

See?? Follow? Pretty sure that covers the bases.... If your si is faster than your CB, then good for you guy, really. Definately worthy of another cookie(still waiting on contact info BTW lol). I'm just saying, the ones I've come accross, aren't that quick....and I've come accross quite a few... It's funny too, it's always such a shocker to people that don't know my car...

Wellp, enough bench racing for me fellas.

Kthxbyemeow

[fatboy1185]

I still win