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Revisiting the V6 swap

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    #46
    There's a local guy here in Dallas that ported a J37A4 intake manifold and said there wasn't really much to do. It's a pretty good design already. The only thing I would worry about on that manifold would be enlarging the throttle body opening. It looks like you can go to 70mm, so a straight-through adapter would allow you to bolt up a J37A4 throttle body. (Yes, the throttle body for an intake with a 76mm opening is 70mm.)
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      #47
      Originally posted by Jarrett View Post
      Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Since the mounts available for a 5-speed Accord or Prelude ('90-'02 Accord or '92-'01 Prelude) really only differ based on whether you have the '90-'93 Accord transmission stud pattern or "the field", it would make sense that a J-series mount kit designed to locate the passenger side mount (in this case, the timing side, as the J-series is flipped) in the engine bay of a '97-'01 Prelude, should actually accomplish the exact same thing in any of the Accord and Prelude models I listed. What that could mean is that the only mount that won't theoretically bolt right up out of the box for the Innovative '97-'01 Prelude kit would be the driver's side mount, not the transmission mount.

      Thoughts?
      If you look in the PreludePower thread I posted earlier, he said that the axle angles for the J was not ideal in the BB6 and two members have broken axles with the stock innovative mount location. I wonder if that would apply for the CB as well.

      Originally posted by Rilas View Post
      I've long thought about the possibly of a J in my CB7 as well. I've also thought that the Prelude conversion kit could be used. But I'm also seriously intrigued about putting an aluminum subframe into our cars. This may be an option I look into after finishing up this H22A1 I have sitting behind the TL currently. The more I've worked on these J series engines the more I'm liking what Honda has done for the most part. Aside from the single port exhausts.
      Plus, when you get ready to upgrade, there is always the rear diff and subframe ready for you!

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        #48
        Originally posted by sonikaccord View Post
        If you look in the PreludePower thread I posted earlier, he said that the axle angles for the J was not ideal in the BB6 and two members have broken axles with the stock innovative mount location. I wonder if that would apply for the CB as well.
        I'd imagine so, but the kit is also going to be not completely bolt-in so I can definitely do some changing of the mount points to give the best axle angle. I planned for that anyways, not a huge deal.

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          #49
          And maybe there's a case to be made for a crossmember that is designed with a J-series in mind from the beginning, like willbill642 keeps suggesting.

          One thing I did notice from the swap on the Prelude was the issue he presented with the spark plugs. It would be a royal pain to have to do anything with motor mounts in order to change spark plugs. These aren't the days of the big-block Fords in between narrow Mustang frame rails. Moving it back with a more accommodating rear crossmember could alleviate axle angle issues and provide more clearance at the radiator.


          Edit*

          I know that the kit from Innovative was supposed to have been designed around the Prelude, but I'm wondering if CG/TL/CL front lower control arms that would reduce caster in the front wheels would help to center the front axles and reduce binding. Without measurements, this is just speculation, but I thought it worth making a mental note of.
          Last edited by Jarrett; 12-07-2016, 11:14 AM.
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            #50
            After going over the information that sonikaccord provided, it seems that none of the front crossmembers are compatible with each other across different generations. The widths between bolt holes seem to vary greatly. I'll measure my crossmember from the CLS6 when I have a chance to get down to Bryan as it's just leaning up on a shelf in the garage. I also have a loose Accord crossmember in there, too, for comparison's sake.

            Sonik, would you happen to have the side view measurements for the '05-'12 Acura RL?
            My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

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              #51
              Originally posted by Jarrett View Post
              After going over the information that sonikaccord provided, it seems that none of the front crossmembers are compatible with each other across different generations. The widths between bolt holes seem to vary greatly. I'll measure my crossmember from the CLS6 when I have a chance to get down to Bryan as it's just leaning up on a shelf in the garage. I also have a loose Accord crossmember in there, too, for comparison's sake.

              Sonik, would you happen to have the side view measurements for the '05-'12 Acura RL?
              4th gen Accord, 5th gen Accord, and 5th gen prelude front crossmembers will bolt up, but rear ones will not. Means a 3.0CL front member might work, but there's no point since the Innovative front traction bar and J-swap mount are the better choices. Well, except maybe budget. I really need one to pop up in the local junkyards and see what mounts I can remove easily from the CL.
              Last edited by willbill642; 12-08-2016, 11:21 PM.

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                #52
                By front crossmember I meant the crossmember that holds the steering rack. It's not really a rear crossmember, and it felt odd to call it a rear-front crossmember. Anyway, you're right, the front beam could gain a budget-minded user to have a part that will allow the engine to bolt right in up front, and give some flexibilty for upgrading to a traction bar with a space-saver front mount later.
                My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

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                  #53
                  Originally posted by Jarrett View Post
                  By front crossmember I meant the crossmember that holds the steering rack. It's not really a rear crossmember, and it felt odd to call it a rear-front crossmember. Anyway, you're right, the front beam could gain a budget-minded user to have a part that will allow the engine to bolt right in up front, and give some flexibilty for upgrading to a traction bar with a space-saver front mount later.
                  Ah okay. It is a bit disappointing, however I'm curious if the 3.0CL rear mount unbolts, and how similar the rear subframe is to the I4 cars.

                  Additionally, I actually found the old thread of that one shop doing a J swap in a CB7, and one thing they did was notch the rear subframe. I remeber vaguely that the prelude guys noted this was necessary to get a good axle angle. Either way, this means I might just be best off modifying the rear subframe to mount the J32/J35 and adapting the prelude innovative rear mount to work.

                  Honestly, there's not really a better course of action besides just buying the Prelude kit and going from there. Additionally, I'm thinking that sticking with the earlier J-series engines (J32a2, J35a3) and grabbing an '06 TL tranny is going to be my best bet, simply because I can strip junkyard cars for the entire wiring harness and any random module I need. It also means I can port the J32a2 heads for better flow than the later single-exit J-series heads, and push my NA power even higher. Also, if I find any J-series 6spd trans in my junkyards, I can pick it up for about $130 and later replace it with an LSD trans (or just install an LSD in that trans).

                  I wonder if the TL, CL, or 6th Gen V6 Accord mounts can be removed/modified fairly easily...this may end up being a heavy junkyard swap, at least for now.

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                    #54
                    The rearmost portion of the engine/transmission assbly is the differential case on the transmission. If that's where these guys are clearancing the subframe, then it should be too bad.

                    If you find a 6-speed manual from a J-series is a self-service junkyard, you'll be one of the very few I've heard of.
                    My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

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                      #55
                      I've seen 2 or 3 in the junkyards. I just never had any incentive to spend the time ripping it out of the car. Also when short on time, like I always am, I have to prioritize. A transmission I had no use for was pretty low on the list even though I'd love to have it sitting on a shelf. On a side note, I got pictures of the sub frame from the 3rd Gen TL. I'll get them posted up once I'm home from work. I forgot to grab the sd card out of the camera on the way to work. I got pictures of all the mounting points, suspension, and just whatever I thought was important about it. It might be a decent option with some fab work.
                      MRT: 1993 Honda Accord SE Coupe (Lola)

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                        #56
                        Originally posted by Jarrett View Post
                        The rearmost portion of the engine/transmission assbly is the differential case on the transmission. If that's where these guys are clearancing the subframe, then it should be too bad.

                        If you find a 6-speed manual from a J-series is a self-service junkyard, you'll be one of the very few I've heard of.
                        I actually found an Accord with one before, I just didn't have the tools to get it, and the car was gone the next day.

                        Originally posted by Rilas View Post
                        I've seen 2 or 3 in the junkyards. I just never had any incentive to spend the time ripping it out of the car. Also when short on time, like I always am, I have to prioritize. A transmission I had no use for was pretty low on the list even though I'd love to have it sitting on a shelf. On a side note, I got pictures of the sub frame from the 3rd Gen TL. I'll get them posted up once I'm home from work. I forgot to grab the sd card out of the camera on the way to work. I got pictures of all the mounting points, suspension, and just whatever I thought was important about it. It might be a decent option with some fab work.
                        Cool! I'm curious just how much fab work is required.
                        Last edited by Jarrett; 12-12-2016, 11:08 PM.

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                          #57
                          Originally posted by Jarrett View Post
                          Sonik, would you happen to have the side view measurements for the '05-'12 Acura RL?
                          They are located here under the frame (see what I did there?) link. I forgot to add them to the rest of the measurements.

                          http://www.acuralegendwiki.org/index...nuals_And_TSBs

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                            #58
                            Originally posted by sonikaccord View Post
                            (see what I did there?)
                            My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

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                              #59
                              Looking at the spec sheets that Sonik posted and measuring the two subframes I have, there doesn't seem to be any hope for installing the 3.0CL rear subframe in the '90-'93 Accord. This is just confirmation from what I already posted in post #50. If we had CD5/7s, I'm sure that would be the ticket. But our mounting points are a little too wide for the rear-most front subframe.

                              I took a bunch of pictures of my CB subframe and that of my 3.2CL. I'll post them later, though it's pretty much a moot point now.

                              It looks like custom is the way to go here now. I have a spare shortblock I can strip down and bolt up one of my 6-speeds to. That would be the easiest way to place the engine in the bay without all of the bulk, but still have provisions for all of the mounts to see where they'd need to go in the bay. This sounds like a project for a spring break.
                              My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

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                                #60
                                Originally posted by Jarrett View Post
                                Looking at the spec sheets that Sonik posted and measuring the two subframes I have, there doesn't seem to be any hope for installing the 3.0CL rear subframe in the '90-'93 Accord. This is just confirmation from what I already posted in post #50. If we had CD5/7s, I'm sure that would be the ticket. But our mounting points are a little too wide for the rear-most front subframe.

                                I took a bunch of pictures of my CB subframe and that of my 3.2CL. I'll post them later, though it's pretty much a moot point now.

                                It looks like custom is the way to go here now. I have a spare shortblock I can strip down and bolt up one of my 6-speeds to. That would be the easiest way to place the engine in the bay without all of the bulk, but still have provisions for all of the mounts to see where they'd need to go in the bay. This sounds like a project for a spring break.
                                Sounds like you have become just as infatuated with this as I have however you've got a few more resources (see: garage of spare parts) than I do to do this. I've started tracking down parts for this to happen, but I don't expect much progress until at least the summer for me. I'll hopefully have a Mr going up soon along with a FS thread to fund this, though

                                As for subframe pictures, they'd be interesting if nothing else. Might give early insight into rear mount positioning. Discussing this with friends made me realize that the rear mount is likely going to be the biggest pain just because of how the mount attaches to the subframe.

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