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    #16
    We both have a different perspective about this, I have a lot of experience on this type of motor, there is a reason why I chose to put these motors on both my cars, I wanted something dohc, reliable and cheap something that I could build with oem parts and make power at the same time

    Both motors were built by me and both have been more than reliable
    Lets just say I built 2 Achilles with titanium heels
    Originally posted by deevergote
    Just do what PR CB7 said.

    "I'm Going For Wood" (Clickey Clickey)

    Comment


      #17
      Full H22s are not that expensive and way more reliable than a hybrid

      For an experienced builder maybe it can be worth it but for the avg poster here, hell no


      Originally posted by lordoja
      im with you on that one bro! aint nothing beat free food and drinks any day of the week, even if its at a funeral

      Comment


        #18
        I'm not even saying that you have to do a plain-Jane H22A. In fact, i dont particularly like the low stroke. The build I mentioned earlier that I keep harping on will accomplish the same benefits that this hybrid has while doing so as a better-engineered design.

        People seem to insist on using OEM head gaskets so often because of how necessary it is to have as quality of a part there as possible. Then why is it suddenly acceptable to use an F23A head gasket that, in addition to the exposed deck surface because of bore differential, will also have a .25mm ring around each cylinder exposed because it's 86.5mm? You (anyone) have every right to call out my lack of experience with this setup, but with those two issues alone (exposed deck and exposed head gasket lip) I would look into alternatives. The popularity of this swap seems based on compromise.

        But I feel I should clarify again that the point of this thread is not to attack those like PirateMcFred(Holy crap! Auto-fill on my iPhone even knows who you are!) and PR_CB7 who have had success with this. It's to show the issues that inherently exist with this and to show that there are better alternatives for 99% of those out there. If you need proof just google "Honda G22" or like terms and see how many thread results you get with the word "HELP!!!!!!!!!!" in them. Granted most of those people shouldn't have touched their engine in the first place, but it still shows that there are many problems associated with this.
        My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

        Comment


          #19
          Look up in Honda society, they have over 10 members that had success with this
          With some work to the head, a 85mm will do just fine, Hell I even used evergreen gaskets on some that currently run
          Originally posted by deevergote
          Just do what PR CB7 said.

          "I'm Going For Wood" (Clickey Clickey)

          Comment


            #20
            What counts as success

            Nobody said the engines wouldnt run, just that for the avg tuner its not worth the effort

            What kind of HP do you get with this swap? 150WHP? 160WHP? There are people making that on F22As NA w/stock compression

            Would make more sense to do a 95mm H22A, if anything


            Originally posted by lordoja
            im with you on that one bro! aint nothing beat free food and drinks any day of the week, even if its at a funeral

            Comment


              #21
              172 with a skunk2 manifold 70mm fully tuned 345cc injectors
              Originally posted by deevergote
              Just do what PR CB7 said.

              "I'm Going For Wood" (Clickey Clickey)

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by gloryaccordy View Post
                What counts as success?
                That's a good question.

                When parts are readily available and the individual doing the assembly/tuning isn't an idiot:

                No. 1 Cheap (it was for me and my nonVTEC parts)
                No. 2 Makes more power assuming comparable mods to an F22A
                No. 3 Still reliable (at least as reliable as any engine that's going to be revved like a modded Honda)
                No. 4 Greater aftermarket support for H-series top-ends
                No. 5 No worse (or better) fuel economy

                At least that's been my experience. If that's not 'successful' then I'd like to hear someone else's definition.

                My H23A1 DOHC nonVTEC head, F23 block, H22 pistons got me 165whp/169wtq on the stock cams and high mileage head. I later swapped to a reconditioned F22B DOHC head and installed Crower cams and made 200whp/183wtq after tuning. It lasted for 60,000 before I pulled it. I had less then $1k in the entire engine total. I don't think I've seen that performance per dollar from anyone's F22A SOHC yet.

                -P
                VTEC G27? = ???whp ???wtq
                VTEC G23 = 220whp 191wtq
                nonVTEC G23 = 200whp 183wtq
                K24 iVTEC hybrid = 260whp 210wtq

                Comment


                  #23
                  Your build did away with the chief issue that an H22A/H23A1 head swap has. You bored out an F23A block to 87mm to get rid of any ridge on the cylinder deck. While maybe I, personally, wouldn't like to tackle the task of modifying the head for mismatching oil drains the largest obstacle has been defeated.

                  And with your F22B DOHC head you've gone to a setup that somewhat mimics the channels on the F23A block in addition to provided some quench area above the piston for power.

                  In my opinion, neither one of those screams "cheap and poorly thought out". The fact that you managed to accomplish them cheaply is fantastic.
                  My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

                  Comment


                    #24
                    I was merely defining my 'success' criteria. I don't presume to be an "average" builder/tuner but no one gets any good at something without some practice and everyones got to start somewhere.

                    As for that .25mm lip you mentioned several times before, please, with your thumb and fore-finger and a camera, please show me what you think .25mm is (or supply another practical real-world example of what .25mm is) and tell me if you've ever heard the terms "boundary layer" in the context of combustion chambers and the gasses therein.

                    Afterward tell me what happens to that lip if you mill a head .010" or so.

                    I'm serious. I don't think people really know what some of these measurements really translate to, practically speaking. I don't mean to offend.

                    -P
                    VTEC G27? = ???whp ???wtq
                    VTEC G23 = 220whp 191wtq
                    nonVTEC G23 = 200whp 183wtq
                    K24 iVTEC hybrid = 260whp 210wtq

                    Comment


                      #25
                      .25mm? Isnt it a 1mm lip (0.025" or 1/40th inch)


                      Originally posted by lordoja
                      im with you on that one bro! aint nothing beat free food and drinks any day of the week, even if its at a funeral

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Milling the head takes care of the lip
                        Milling the head raises your comp
                        The headswap makes better power than the original head
                        No rocket science
                        Originally posted by deevergote
                        Just do what PR CB7 said.

                        "I'm Going For Wood" (Clickey Clickey)

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Great read. I was wondering why no one has mentioned the hybrid that is basically a jdm F22B, but then again it seems like that's probably the easiest of all the accomplish. I know nothing.

                          *Side note* I still dont get why people say the SOHC head is a TON better than the DOHC head & even more crazy is when they mention it being better than the VTEC DOHC head.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            You don't offend. In fact, this thread is going much better than expected. And I understand that, if milled the diameter of the conical combustion chamber will decrease. The .25mm dimension was not the focus of the argument so much as the exposed deck surface. Even still, it doesn't take much to form a hot spot.

                            And yes I am familiar with boundary layer in a fluid dynamics sense as it's a popular argument for leaving rough surfaces when porting heads. Do you mean to refer to it here in how it reacts with the surface of the combustion chamber or are you referring to how the to the small pockets of turbulence I illustrated in the picture?

                            And Glory, the .25mm is the difference is radius between an 86.5mm bore(F23A headgasket) and 87mm (bone stock H22A combustion chamber diameter).


                            Originally posted by 8ball View Post
                            Great read. I was wondering why no one has mentioned the hybrid that is basically a jdm F22B, but then again it seems like that's probably the easiest of all the accomplish. I know nothing.

                            *Side note* I still dont get why people say the SOHC head is a TON better than the DOHC head & even more crazy is when they mention it being better than the VTEC DOHC head.
                            Depending on what you're going for the SOHC F22A does have an almost ideal valve angle. The head is also of a good design with lots of potential if being massaged by someone with F22A experience. Don't discount the head just because it doesn't say "DOHC VTEC" on it. I won't say anything absolute and say that anything is better than the other, but it is a VERY capable head. I'm not a band-wagoner, but why do you think Bisi uses it on his build?
                            Last edited by Jarrett; 08-07-2012, 12:08 AM.
                            My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by Jarrett View Post
                              I won't say anything absolute and say that anything is better than the other, but it is a VERY capable head. I'm not a band-wagoner, but why do you think Bisi uses it on his build?
                              Because Bisimoto is a Hipster; for the response bro appreciate it.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                There is a reason why variable valve timing was invented, unfortunately a non vvt head has none of this

                                On a non vvt head, you can't have a decent idle and conserve gas at the same time, it has a solid lobe, a lobe that will give you that "cammed" sound

                                Even though the f22a head has a bigger ports and valve angle is better than the H
                                The head lacks of another cam to easier control the opening and closing of valves and it lack of adjustable valve timing, 2 important factors in the racing world

                                Now everyone here uses bisi as an example, which is great but he transformed that motor into a race engine, you don't see him nowhere else but the track
                                In order to maximize the ouput of those ports. BIG cam is needed
                                When it comes to racing to get somethings you have to sacrifice others
                                Head than can change the the opening of a valve on the fly is something that will make power and retain some driveability

                                Granted compression will be the yielding factor in this game, but with a 85mm bore and iron sleeves that can be bored to 87mm, there are plenty of k series pistons and forged
                                h22pistons that can be used on this block, something the Frm sleeves don't let you do

                                Where this block shines is the extra 5mm of stroke on the crank and the use of iron sleeves
                                I'm not bashing on frm, but iron is so easy to work with, boring is simple no special stones are required and the fact that you start small and have 2mm of boring to play with if something were to happen, if you go over .50 on a frm sleeve you'll destroy it
                                To damage a sleeve .50 is not that hard to do, but is a nice peace of mind that it can be fixed
                                It would suck to have invested so much money on a block and scoring it later
                                The only other choice you have is sleeving

                                It's only a matter of time until other people figure this out, right now this combo has some bad rep, but not for long
                                Keep doing calculations and maybe you'll figure it out
                                Originally posted by deevergote
                                Just do what PR CB7 said.

                                "I'm Going For Wood" (Clickey Clickey)

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