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Revisiting the V6 swap

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    #31
    I see. I did not know that the J32a2 only had a trans mount on the brace. I had assumed all J series came with an upper and lower mount for the trans. My J35z3 has both. Maybe when Honda switched to the ACE body, they started including both? I couldn't find a good picture of the upper mount in the car on Google. I'll take one myself so we can have that on file.

    This is the RL's just in case the thread viewers have not seen one before. It's a tubular, aluminum, boxed in subframe. I mentioned before that this one looks much more substantial than the stamped steel versions.
    Last edited by sonikaccord; 12-03-2016, 08:50 AM.

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      #32
      Originally posted by Jarrett View Post


      Here's what I'm talking about. The bracing that the J32A2 6-speed transmission sits on is this flimsy stamped steel. If you knew this, I apologize. Based on your response it sounded like you were referring to a frame rail mount, which it doesn't have in an OEM application.
      That's from an '03 CL, correct? I'm curious if the 1st gen CL uses a similar mounting style.

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        #33
        Originally posted by sonikaccord View Post
        But the two side mounts primary job is to support the weight of the engine and trans and the front and rear mounts to reduce the amount of recoil(?) from the torque. Ideally, the subframe would see as little weight from the engine as possible.

        So to keep it CB specific, yes the one-piece subframe does have a transmission mount, but the trans also has and needs a rail mount support. It(the subframe) will bolt up to the front mounting holes, but a rear brace will be needed for the additional 2 mounting holes.


        Here is the 90% finished document. It may have a few errors, and still needs the 2g TL portion which I'll add. Feel free to add or edit. It is a collaborative effort.

        https://1drv.ms/w/s!AvnvrjOYneR_nHjW0bQHqDIWHZ0O
        Beautiful. I'll be digging through this to find what subframes will just straight bolt up to the Accord, and what could fit with minor modifications.

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          #34
          Originally posted by sonikaccord View Post
          I see. I did not know that the J32a2 only had a trans mount on the brace. I had assumed all J series came with an upper and lower mount for the trans. My J35z3 has both. Maybe when Honda switched to the ACE body, they started including both? I couldn't find a good picture of the upper mount in the car on Google. I'll take one myself so we can have that on file.

          This is the RL's just in case the thread viewers have not seen one before. It's a tubular, aluminum, boxed in subframe. I mentioned before that this one looks much more substantial than the stamped steel versions.
          This is what I was hoping the CL frame would be like.

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            #35
            It would be awesome! Then we wouldn't need torsion arms at all. Those use triangulated front lower control arms, also made of aluminum. What attaches to that is a front knuckle that is ALSO aluminum.
            My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

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              #36
              Originally posted by Jarrett View Post
              It would be awesome! Then we wouldn't need torsion arms at all. Those use triangulated front lower control arms, also made of aluminum. What attaches to that is a front knuckle that is ALSO aluminum.
              Talk about lightweight. Too bad the RL has 5x120 bolt pattern, and not the more common 5x114. I wonder if the TL-S hubs have the same lower ball joint, then I could have factory brembos

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                #37
                Those knuckles you see in the background of the engine shots are all knuckles from a '04-'08 TL with Brembos. I have a couple sets of everything. There's a bit more work that goes into it, but yes, you would need that knuckle to do it properly and not have to modify the caliper.

                The balljoint on the TL knuckle (and many newer full-size Hondas) is the same balljoint used on the '92-'01 Prelude. Consequently, that's the same size as the '96-'04 RL/'96-'98 3.2TL. So you would need to ream the lower control arm with the proper tool to get them to mate up. The outer tie rod ball joint is also larger, but there's an issue there, too. The TL outer tie rod is too short. So you either have to lengthen it or find a longer one. The only longer one I could find was from a Pilot/Ridgeline/MDX. However, the ball joint on the rod end is EVEN BIGGER! Bigger than the TL unit which was already bigger than the CB part. The same ream can be used to enlarge the hole in the TL knuckle, but it needs to be done from the other side of the knuckle to use the tie rod ends in the OEM CB configuration.

                Once all that has been done, then you can install your knuckles, rotors, calipers, pads and hard/soft brake lines.
                My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by Jarrett View Post
                  Those knuckles you see in the background of the engine shots are all knuckles from a '04-'08 TL with Brembos. I have a couple sets of everything. There's a bit more work that goes into it, but yes, you would need that knuckle to do it properly and not have to modify the caliper.

                  The balljoint on the TL knuckle (and many newer full-size Hondas) is the same balljoint used on the '92-'01 Prelude. Consequently, that's the same size as the '96-'04 RL/'96-'98 3.2TL. So you would need to ream the lower control arm with the proper tool to get them to mate up. The outer tie rod ball joint is also larger, but there's an issue there, too. The TL outer tie rod is too short. So you either have to lengthen it or find a longer one. The only longer one I could find was from a Pilot/Ridgeline/MDX. However, the ball joint on the rod end is EVEN BIGGER! Bigger than the TL unit which was already bigger than the CB part. The same ream can be used to enlarge the hole in the TL knuckle, but it needs to be done from the other side of the knuckle to use the tie rod ends in the OEM CB configuration.

                  Once all that has been done, then you can install your knuckles, rotors, calipers, pads and hard/soft brake lines.
                  I was referring to using the TL-S knuckle with the RL subframe, lower arms, and steering rack.

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                    #39
                    Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Since the mounts available for a 5-speed Accord or Prelude ('90-'02 Accord or '92-'01 Prelude) really only differ based on whether you have the '90-'93 Accord transmission stud pattern or "the field", it would make sense that a J-series mount kit designed to locate the passenger side mount (in this case, the timing side, as the J-series is flipped) in the engine bay of a '97-'01 Prelude, should actually accomplish the exact same thing in any of the Accord and Prelude models I listed. What that could mean is that the only mount that won't theoretically bolt right up out of the box for the Innovative '97-'01 Prelude kit would be the driver's side mount, not the transmission mount.

                    Thoughts?
                    My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by Jarrett View Post
                      Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Since the mounts available for a 5-speed Accord or Prelude ('90-'02 Accord or '92-'01 Prelude) really only differ based on whether you have the '90-'93 Accord transmission stud pattern or "the field", it would make sense that a J-series mount kit designed to locate the passenger side mount (in this case, the timing side, as the J-series is flipped) in the engine bay of a '97-'01 Prelude, should actually accomplish the exact same thing in any of the Accord and Prelude models I listed. What that could mean is that the only mount that won't theoretically bolt right up out of the box for the Innovative '97-'01 Prelude kit would be the driver's side mount, not the transmission mount.

                      Thoughts?
                      The prelude (stock mount at least) has the bushing on the chassis(sorta). That said, this was my reasoning as well for the Innovative kit. If it's not perfectly bolt-in, it should be damn close.

                      So, I've decided on a course of action for this swap:

                      1. Pick up a J32a2 with ECU, wiring, and gauge cluster. Also pick up a 6spd trans, likely from an Accord just because of price.

                      2. Pick up the Innovative Prelude J-swap kit, front traction bar, and a TL radiator and fans. If I find specs of a 1st gen CL Front and rear subframes, I may also pick these up.

                      3. Strip the car down, see how bolt-in the parts are. Find a combination that works, fabricate what doesn't.

                      4. Due to cost, for now strip the Accord down as much as possible, selling what I don't need anymore. I may pick up an ESP rear and front strut bar, Progressive rear swaybar, and a 5-lug conversion at this point. Which reminds me, anyone interested in a good condition set of '91 SE black leather seats and doorcards?

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                        #41
                        You want that LSD, trust me. Good buys are out there, you just need to find them. If you had a chance to pick anything you wanted, I would suggest an '06 TL 6-speed. I'm specific to the '06 as the 3rd gear synchros are beefier to help eliminate problems people were having in the CL/TL/Accord transmissions to that point. Those changes were transferred over into the '07-'08 TL Type-S 6-speed, but that uses a different bellhousing.

                        If you could find a J35A8 from an '05-'08 RL (significantly cheaper than TL Type-S), and then buy an '07-'08 6-speed TL-S transmission, you'd likely be around the same price as a J32A2 and 6-speed. You'd have more displacement, much better camshafts and a higher-flowing magnesium intake manifold with about 3/4-inch more hood clearance.

                        Mostly I'm just trying to keep this conversation going because you've made me infatuated with it and started looking at selling all of my H22A stuff.
                        My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

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                          #42
                          I've long thought about the possibly of a J in my CB7 as well. I've also thought that the Prelude conversion kit could be used. But I'm also seriously intrigued about putting an aluminum subframe into our cars. This may be an option I look into after finishing up this H22A1 I have sitting behind the TL currently. The more I've worked on these J series engines the more I'm liking what Honda has done for the most part. Aside from the single port exhausts.
                          MRT: 1993 Honda Accord SE Coupe (Lola)

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                            #43
                            Originally posted by Jarrett View Post
                            You want that LSD, trust me. Good buys are out there, you just need to find them. If you had a chance to pick anything you wanted, I would suggest an '06 TL 6-speed. I'm specific to the '06 as the 3rd gear synchros are beefier to help eliminate problems people were having in the CL/TL/Accord transmissions to that point. Those changes were transferred over into the '07-'08 TL Type-S 6-speed, but that uses a different bellhousing.

                            If you could find a J35A8 from an '05-'08 RL (significantly cheaper than TL Type-S), and then buy an '07-'08 6-speed TL-S transmission, you'd likely be around the same price as a J32A2 and 6-speed. You'd have more displacement, much better camshafts and a higher-flowing magnesium intake manifold with about 3/4-inch more hood clearance.

                            Mostly I'm just trying to keep this conversation going because you've made me infatuated with it and started looking at selling all of my H22A stuff.
                            I've strongly considered the J35a8, especially since it puts me much closer to my power goal. Are the mount points the same as the earlier J-series as well? If so, you might have me convinced on that, especially since my plans with the J32a2 basically consisted of RL cams, pistons, MDX crank, J37 intake and some sort of custom longtube headers. The better transmission make me want it all that much more now.

                            The reason for the Accord tranny is because I can likely get it for about $130 at the local junkyards, which is very nice on the wallet especially to just get it running with a J-swap.

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                              #44
                              Originally posted by willbill642 View Post
                              I've strongly considered the J35a8, especially since it puts me much closer to my power goal. Are the mount points the same as the earlier J-series as well? If so, you might have me convinced on that, especially since my plans with the J32a2 basically consisted of RL cams, pistons, MDX crank, J37 intake and some sort of custom longtube headers. The better transmission make me want it all that much more now.

                              The reason for the Accord tranny is because I can likely get it for about $130 at the local junkyards, which is very nice on the wallet especially to just get it running with a J-swap.
                              I'm sure you know that it's a 3.5 and not a 3.7, like the MDX, but it would make the 96mm crankshaft swap much less necessary. The J35A8 intake is very similar to the newer J37A1/4 manifold, but it has a 68mm opening instead of a 76mm opening. The mounting pattern also doesn't have anything available in terms of adapters that will let you install a more traditional B/D/F/H style throttle body. You'll be restricted to the OEM DBW size, but that's not really an issue if going to a true standalone.
                              Last edited by Jarrett; 12-06-2016, 06:26 PM.
                              My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

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                                #45
                                Originally posted by Jarrett View Post
                                I'm sure you know that it's a 3.5 and not a 3.7, like the MDX, but it would make the 96mm crankshaft swap much less necessary. The J35A8 intake is very similar to the newer J37A1/4 manifold, but it has a 68mm opening instead of a 74mm opening. The mounting pattern also doesn't have anything available in terms of adapters that will let you install a more traditional B/D/F/H style throttle body. You'll be restricted to the OEM DBW size, but that's not really an issue if going to a true standalone.
                                I guess I should specify, either way I'm going to stick with nothing longer than the 3.5 cranks. I meant the J35a3 crank, not the later J37 cranks. If I do go with the J35a8, I'll likely use the factory TL ecu and FlashPro and associated harness, since I don't quite care what harness ends up in the car and this will allow me to start with a stock setup then build up from there.

                                Do you know how much, if any, the J35a8 manifold can be ported? I can build stuff like adapters for throttle bodies, that's not very hard given time and patience, both of which I now have with this build

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