Mountain carving 92LX wagon (go ahead, laugh)

[JDMWNCCB9]

I'm tired of having a boat of a car to ride these mountain roads here and I'm wanting a better setup for hanging curves. Not really interested in more power or noise because I'm a slow car fast person and you don't need horsepower if you never have to slow down. I'm very mechanically inclined and I come from the Subaru world. My outback (yay two wagons!) is a lightly built EJ22E with DOHC JDM STI heads and a VF28 STI turbo built by yours truly in the kitchen (one easy step for a mad girlfriend) and its worlds of fun but it's by no means a daily and I'm wanting my daily to be a little more fun. Factory 5 speed CB9 so it gets decent mileage. So I'd like input, who makes the best suspension parts who makes good parts and who makes parts to avoid. My little list is as follows:

Coilovers (not that sleeve nonsense)
Camber kits (big believer in a good alignment)
16x~8 and 215-225 tires
Rear away bar (no front upgrade, stupid thing understeers as is)
Rear disc swap
Good ceramic pads (love my EBC on my Outback track wagon)
Stiff sway bar end links
Chassis bracing
Poly bushings

Lemme know your thoughts, if I've missed anything or what my best options are. Thanks!

[lbus9168]

For Coilovers I'd Reccomend Bilsteins, they seem to be excellent, if your on a budget BC BR's always worked okay for me, or extreme budget then id go Function and Form Type 1's, Cant help with camber kits sorry, id look at getting 16x7" rpf1's, x8 is a little wide, and id run Yokohoma Advan AD08r's, DO NOT JUST UPGRADE THE REAR. heaps of people do this, and your not actually going faster, it just oversteers more. do both, usually a matched set works quite well (i.e. whiteline front and rear). For bushes energy suspenion seems good.

i thought wagons already had discs? mine does but im australian so idk. for pads try QFM a1rm, little known australian brand, but work welll. end links use energy suspenion.

Same with bushes.

What level of chassis bracing do you want? strut bars do 3/5 of fuckall, the only real bracing youll get is a cage.

[deevergote]

The LX wagon had drums in back. 15" steelies, too!

The only camber kits to trust are from Ingalls or SPC. They make multiple types, so get whatever you or your alignment tech prefer. As long as it's made by one of those two brands and installed correctly, you're good.

Honestly, I would suggest some good springs and shocks over coilovers, unless you really have the tools and knowledge to properly adjust them. Competent engineers design the springs and shocks, and (for the most part) they're fixed... set up from the factory to work properly. Coilovers offer such a degree of adjustability that someone that lacks the tools and knowledge to take advantage of them could actually end up with a far less effective setup than they would with static springs and shocks. I've been in this game since you were 6 years old... and I will freely admit that even I do not have the necessary tools or knowledge to effectively set up some adjustable coilovers.

Additionally, "that sleeve nonsense" actually encompasses one of the best adjustable setups for the CB. Koni Yellow shocks and Ground Control sleeves are superior to 90% of the full coilovers on the market for these cars. The only difference is that the threaded spring collars are separate from the shock body, rather than welded to it. Otherwise, they are no different than other basic coilovers... only with MUCH higher quality components.

Whatever you get, buy your components from legitimate suspension manufacturers. Companies that actually engineer and produce their own products. If you can't find any information about a company's manufacturing process or location, move on. Companies like D2, TruHart, Raceland, Omnipower, and Emusa (among others... the list can go on and on...) are all generic "reverse-engineered" garbage, made with the most inexpensive materials and labor in order to offer a cheap product with a high profit margin. DO NOT trust that crap, as your life is riding on it. Especially if you intend to do some spirited driving in the mountains. That crap may feel fine at cruising speeds, but push them hard and you may discover their shortcomings VERY quickly.

If a manufacturer provides details, even an address, for their manufacturing facility... I'd trust them. Especially if that facility is not in China or Taiwan.
If a manufacturer is an OEM supplier, making components for major automakers (and they specify which automakers... and which components...) then I woudl trust them.
If a manufacturer outsources for certain components (such as H&R using either Koni or Bilstein dampers for their full coilovers), then they should specify WHICH manufacturers they use. Only then would I trust them.

I would NOT trust any company from China or Taiwan. I'm sure there are some quality companies (the aforementioned BC is in Taiwan, and they DO have a high end line that seems to be quality... but for the price, there are more reputable products.) Still, in general, people seek items made in those countries because they are absurdly cheap.
I would NOT trust any company that offers no detailed info on their manufacturing process or location, yet plasters images of race cars bearing their logo all over their site ("look how many fools will rock our logo in exchange for free junk!")
If you have questions about the manufacturing location and processes of a certain company, email them. I guarantee that the ones with shady Chinese/Taiwanese sources will be incredibly evasive. The ones that do it themselves will be proud to answer your questions truthfully.

[sonikaccord]

And by manufacturing processes, he means real certifications/standardization.

SPC's adjustable balljoints are good. I've racked up about 40,000 mines and still no play. I've also banged my inner fender for a little while, being too low, and they held up to that abuse. I'd recommend them.

Since you don't want sleeves, I'd recommend Bilsteins as well.

Poly bushings: Prothane...I have to re-grease mine now that I think about it.

You can run 8's and even 8.5's (offset around +35) but you'll be doing some fender pulling. 7-7.5 is a comfortable size, imo.

[JDMWNCCB9]

Thanks y'all I really appreciate the help. This place is so much more helpful than the Facebook page ever even thought about being.

[Rilas]

For bushings you have either Energy Suspension or Prothane. I have both on my sedan currently for 3-4 years and have had no issues with either. For chassis bracing there is ESP.net (which is back from a hiatus, for how long no one knows, but the products are absolutely top notch) Ultra Racing, and some older products which have all been discontinued but you can still find. Nuespeed front strut tower bar and some other brands. As for shocks, I love my Bilsteins on Nuespeed race springs, it isn't the biggest drop 2.25" front 2" rear, but it does ride incredibly well.

[deevergote]

People have often avoided Bilstein in the past due to a lack of documentation regarding their use with a low drop and high spring rate. I haven't been able to find any info on it myself, though I haven't contacted the company to inquire.
Does anyone have any concrete information on the compatibility of any Bilstein products available for us with stiffer drop springs?

For example, KYB doesn't make anything for the CB that is designed for a drop lower than 1.5" (and their GR2 shocks are only good for a spring rate up to 15% over stock.)
I really like Bilstein, and they may very well be the highest quality shock manufacturer out there that makes parts for the CB (they are generally regarded as better than Koni, and Koni is pretty damn good.) I've always been hesitant to recommend them due to the lack of documentation, and the fairly high pricetag that they carry. I don't count personal experience as evidence, as I've heard plenty of people report "success" with other mismatched components ('dude, my GR2s are fine with my 3" Sprint springs!')

[Rilas]

Deev I can tell you comparing the B6's to my KYB AGX's that the shock bodies are indeed shorter and they have a bit shorter travel than stock as well. I did compare them side by side and the Bilstein's were probably 1-2" shorter than stock replacement shocks. I can't remember exactly how much shorter they were as that was a few months ago at this point. I do understand that this isn't the proof in writing that we would all love to have from the manufacturer itself.

[deevergote]

It's something, at least. I'll have to contact the company directly to see what they say. I know it's possible to send them out to be revalved... but that's a considerable expense added to an already steep price!

[wagon-r]

The Koni sport yellow struts are awesome, and adjustable.

I bought some Bridgestone RE-71R tires last summer. Even with only 205 tread width (205/50r16), the dry traction is far beyond any tire I have ever used (and I have bought nothing but max performance summer tires for years). In fact, I have never gotten these tires to so much as squeal - whatever their limits are, they are beyond my fear factor. I'll put them on again this weekend (have to use all-season tires half the year here in Michigan) and see if I can recalibrate my body to push them to their limits.

[Chrisnick]

See my build thread. Lots of info into exactly what's all been discussed here. If I remember to look at this in the morning, I'll update with more thoughts.

Quickly:

16's are nice, but the tire selection for a 17 is SO much easier and nicer, usually cheaper too. The RE71R is a brilliant tire.

Bilsteins all the way. Either get ground controls or make your own with all-star performance components and summit/qa1 springs. See my thread.

No front bar, biggest rear bar you can find. Progress makes a good unit. Endlinks are nice.

Front shock tower bar makes a HUGE difference. No pivot points. You want a fixed one like a Neuspeed.

Rear will be fine without any camber/toe adjustment with natural lowering. Front, buy 90-93 Integra upper control arms and use the Accord anchor bolts. Great camber, added caster, dial in the toe. No problems for me for over a year now.



Don't know why people say "there's no proof/information" on this stuff. I've proved everything I've tested, autox and lots of daily driving. 20k+ a year.

[deevergote]

I'm asking for the manufacturer's specifications, not amateur opinions. There's a big difference. I know that you know more than most, and I respect that... but I'm looking for the information provided by the engineers that designed the components.

I could provide plenty of "proof" that cut springs and stock shocks work fine. I could provide plenty of "proof" that KYB GR2s can handle a 3" drop. Sadly, that "proof" doesn't really prove anything.

Additionally, the Integra control arms aren't going to correct camber. If I recall correctly, they add more negative camber. Unless the OP is going for additional negative camber, that's no good.

[Chrisnick]

I'm just stating that they work, and very well at that. The OP isn't familiar with this platform, and from a Subaru to the Accord chassis is a was away different ballgame. Completely different suspension designs and as such, require different approaches.

The bikstein B6's available in the US for this platform are technically the euro market "sports" and ARE designed for lowering. The parts numbers match, and if you want, you're more than welcome to contact the European customer support and they'll tell you everything you want to know. The B8's have an even shorter shaft and body and are designed for even higher spring rates and lowering. They're not 'adjustable' like a Koni is, but an OTS Koni sport isn't the greatest thing in the world, either. They work, but have about the same limitation that the Bilstein B6's do when it comes to spring rates with a technically lower damping capability due to the inherent limitations of its specific twin tube design. As far as I'm concerned, the adjustable knob is just for bro points and absolutely not worth the extra expense. With revalves on both, the Bilstein can be valved to match the correct frequency needed. Then what's the point of a knob? Extra damping produced from a knob is NOT a benefit in any sense unless the springs are matched to the valving/frequency.

As I've tested, the stock to natural negative camber gain when lowered is woefully inadequate- the outside edges of the tires get BEAT hard with less than -2 degrees static negative camber. -2 to -3 degrees is the sweet spot and the 90-93 Integra arms provide just that when used in conjunction with the Accord anchor bolts. With toe adjusted after ride height is set, there is ZERO increased tire wear and downsides daily driven. The added positive caster is just an extra benefit.

[lbus9168]

Dampening knobs are good for minor at-the-track adjustment and that's about it.

You'd never use it on the street, and if you are you're doing it wrong. So often i hear "yeah bro I turn up the knob to make my car handle better" which it isn't, but for some reason stiffer handling equates better?

Even though your losing grip...

Looks like you've got your proof there Mike, I assume Billie's have more customer support in Europe, so that means you could add this to the stockpile of info!

[deevergote]

I'm just stating that they work, and very well at that. The OP isn't familiar with this platform, and from a Subaru to the Accord chassis is a was away different ballgame. Completely different suspension designs and as such, require different approaches.

The bikstein B6's available in the US for this platform are technically the euro market "sports" and ARE designed for lowering. The parts numbers match, and if you want, you're more than welcome to contact the European customer support and they'll tell you everything you want to know. The B8's have an even shorter shaft and body and are designed for even higher spring rates and lowering. They're not 'adjustable' like a Koni is, but an OTS Koni sport isn't the greatest thing in the world, either. They work, but have about the same limitation that the Bilstein B6's do when it comes to spring rates with a technically lower damping capability due to the inherent limitations of its specific twin tube design. As far as I'm concerned, the adjustable knob is just for bro points and absolutely not worth the extra expense. With revalves on both, the Bilstein can be valved to match the correct frequency needed. Then what's the point of a knob? Extra damping produced from a knob is NOT a benefit in any sense unless the springs are matched to the valving/frequency.

As I've tested, the stock to natural negative camber gain when lowered is woefully inadequate- the outside edges of the tires get BEAT hard with less than -2 degrees static negative camber. -2 to -3 degrees is the sweet spot and the 90-93 Integra arms provide just that when used in conjunction with the Accord anchor bolts. With toe adjusted after ride height is set, there is ZERO increased tire wear and downsides daily driven. The added positive caster is just an extra benefit.

Ok.

Dampening knobs are good for minor at-the-track adjustment and that's about it.

You'd never use it on the street, and if you are you're doing it wrong. So often i hear "yeah bro I turn up the knob to make my car handle better" which it isn't, but for some reason stiffer handling equates better?

Even though your losing grip...

Looks like you've got your proof there Mike, I assume Billie's have more customer support in Europe, so that means you could add this to the stockpile of info!

I set my Konis to full stiff for drag racing once. Forgot to turn them down when I left the track, and I was too tired to notice. Got up for work the next day, got in my car... and before I reached the end of my street I was seriously regretting it! Felt like I was driving a go-kart. Bumps were painful, and worse, the car wanted to skitter around every time it hit a bump.