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How can I make more power out of simple thing on a f22a6

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    #16
    Originally posted by Jon View Post
    Not enough to notice.
    I've felt worse shaking from a bad motor mount than a balance shaft delete/belt removal.
    can I get a link to how this balance shaft delete is done?

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      #17
      i remember a few guys getting good improvements with the bismoto cam shaft.

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        #18
        While the Bismoto cam used to be good. There are a few members that have gotten F22A6 OEM cams back instead of an actual regrind. All the time while paying for a regrind to get a stock cam. None of them were able to get refunds. So you'd be better off with Web Camshafts or a Delta regrind.
        MRT: 1993 Honda Accord SE Coupe (Lola)

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          #19
          Originally posted by blind_peach View Post
          Gentlemen, Gentlemen, we're forgetting the biggest, cheapest thing we all can do for extra performance...

          Weight reduction

          Strip the interior and get rid of those back seats. Who needs a spare? Are you really listening to music on that old radio? Does the AC even work? C'mon. It's all free to do, if you do it right
          Removing parts makes the car a lot more fatiguing to drive. Bad idea.

          OP get an H23 intake plenum and throttle body. That will give you a decent bit of peak HP and a shitload more at the fuel cutoff.


          Originally posted by lordoja
          im with you on that one bro! aint nothing beat free food and drinks any day of the week, even if its at a funeral

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            #20
            If your'e going to delete the balance shafts, get the BSE kit from Kaizenspeed or another performance company. If you just take the belt off, you will only "delete" or eliminate half of the balance shaft system and will have twice the vibration. Engine has to come out of the car to perform the balance shaft delete properly because the front balance shaft is driven off of the oil pump gear, ot must be removed and a stub shaft be installed in its place to maintain oil pump operation. Even then, the second order vibration that the balance shafts are there to correct, WILL slowly cause harm. Premature wear of the transmission (and clutch assembly on manuals) as well as premature failure of engine and trans mounts.
            Last edited by Size9zombie; 01-21-2018, 03:52 PM.

            Under Construction​​​​​​​​

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              #21
              Originally posted by Size9zombie View Post
              If your'e going to delete the balance shafts, get the BSE kit from Kaizenspeed or another performance company. If you just take the belt off, you will only "delete" or eliminate half of the balance shaft system and will have twice the vibration. Engine has to come out of the car to perform the balance shaft delete properly because the front balance shaft is driven off of the oil pump gear, ot must be removed and a stub shaft be installed in its place to maintain oil pump operation. Even then, the second order vibration that the balance shafts are there to correct, WILL slowly cause harm. Premature wear of the transmission (and clutch assembly on manuals) as well as premature failure of engine and trans mounts.
              The balance shafts only run off of the belt. Once the belt is cut, the balance shafts are dead weight. The oil pump still sends oils to the bearings of the BS and that's where the BSE eliminator kit comes in. It blocks the unused oil passages and "increases" oil pressure available in the system.

              YouTube Clicky!!

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                #22
                If the car rides nice think about suspension if you haven’t already. You can only hit a corner so fast with stock suspension regardless of power. Otherwise you can get quite a bit just from a junkyard. If you got the money think about new TB, fuel injectors, pump all the good stuf it wouldn’t run you anything too much but you’d gain a lot of power

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by JTL_91CB7 View Post
                  If the car rides nice think about suspension if you haven’t already. You can only hit a corner so fast with stock suspension regardless of power. Otherwise you can get quite a bit just from a junkyard. If you got the money think about new TB, fuel injectors, pump all the good stuf it wouldn’t run you anything too much but you’d gain a lot of power
                  Simply upgrading injectors and fuel pump will not give you more power..... those are what we call supporting mods. They are used to support other upgrades such as camshaft, turbo, etc to ensure the fuel they need will be available.
                  ~Nick~
                  FSAE (F Series Accord Enthusiasts) ..."A dying breed thats taking it to the next level" Lucky #13
                  MR Thread:http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthre...ight=Grumpys93

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                    #24
                    Exactly. More fuel does not mean more power. In fact, too much fuel will result in less power.

                    Think of it like food. If you need the calories to fuel a high performance body, then lots of food is necessary. If you don’t need the calories, lots of food will make you fat and slow.






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                      #25
                      sonikaccord is right, sorry I was bouncing back and forth between here and dsmtuner, same question on different vehicles, 2 different setups for balance shafts. 4g63 engine has a belt for 1 shaft and the other runs off the oil pump gears. My mistake.

                      Under Construction​​​​​​​​

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                        #26
                        I was doing the same thing to see how the DSM guys felt about BS deletes. It's cool.

                        YouTube Clicky!!

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                          #27
                          Has anyone actually measured the power gained from balance shaft delete?
                          I hear a lot of controversy on the net, in theory you free up some power because you are running less accessories, but on the other hand the load of those shafts should be extremely low since the only resistance they present is rotational inertia and friction. From a different view, they could be allowing the crank to rotate more freely by cancelling out the second order vibrations and therefore reducing the drag that is caused by "shaking the block", this should give the opposite effect. Now its clear that friction and inertia will overwhelm the power gained from less vibration, but my question is: by how much? I would think it could not be more than 5 - 10 hp at the peak, regardless of total power the engine makes.

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                            #28
                            Originally posted by KBA View Post
                            Has anyone actually measured the power gained from balance shaft delete?
                            I hear a lot of controversy on the net, in theory you free up some power because you are running less accessories, but on the other hand the load of those shafts should be extremely low since the only resistance they present is rotational inertia and friction. From a different view, they could be allowing the crank to rotate more freely by cancelling out the second order vibrations and therefore reducing the drag that is caused by "shaking the block", this should give the opposite effect. Now its clear that friction and inertia will overwhelm the power gained from less vibration, but my question is: by how much? I would think it could not be more than 5 - 10 hp at the peak, regardless of total power the engine makes.
                            It's not much inertia as the radii of the balance shafts are very small, relatively. They ARE heavy, so it could be considered static weight reduction. There are six or eight journals that need oiling and that could definitely present some drag to the engine, especially at higher rpm. I doubt it's enough to make a huge difference in reducing losses.

                            I think the second order vibrations aren't really an issue at the crank level, as those fairly are large vibrations. The vibration is still "present" even with the balance shafts functioning. The higher order vibrations are definitely a bigger issue, but it's unrelated to the BS.

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                              #29
                              Well, the second order vibrations are the main target for the balance shafts since they rotate at twice the engine speed. A four-pot crank is already balanced in the first order, but the second order vibrations get larger with the increase of stroke, decrease of RS ratio and increase of piston+rod mass. The reason why the engine still vibrates with these shafts present is that there are a whole bunch of other eccentric components and also the efficiency of the balance shafts is a function of manufacturing precision which is only OK to a certain degree. If the pistons have offset pins like K series, cancelling second order vibrations becomes even harder. Think of it this way... Imagine you have a dremel grinder in your hand that you normally use for porting. Take one of your tiny mills and bend it 90 degrees, install it and turn on the dremel. You will notice that it will run at lower RPM. This is because the motor will waste it's own energy trying to shake itself. I wonder if this phenomenon is the same with second order vibrations... But I really have no clue

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                                #30
                                Originally posted by KBA View Post
                                Well, the second order vibrations are the main target for the balance shafts since they rotate at twice the engine speed. A four-pot crank is already balanced in the first order, but the second order vibrations get larger with the increase of stroke, decrease of RS ratio and increase of piston+rod mass. The reason why the engine still vibrates with these shafts present is that there are a whole bunch of other eccentric components and also the efficiency of the balance shafts is a function of manufacturing precision which is only OK to a certain degree. If the pistons have offset pins like K series, cancelling second order vibrations becomes even harder. Think of it this way... Imagine you have a dremel grinder in your hand that you normally use for porting. Take one of your tiny mills and bend it 90 degrees, install it and turn on the dremel. You will notice that it will run at lower RPM. This is because the motor will waste it's own energy trying to shake itself. I wonder if this phenomenon is the same with second order vibrations... But I really have no clue
                                You bring up some good points.
                                The balance shafts spinning at twice the RPM. I'm sure there is some energy lost there. I forgot that they spin that fast. I guess the driver would notice quicker engine response more than power gained.

                                The k-series guys also have an OEM balance shaft delete kit in the form of a Type-R oil pump swap. I'd like to think that Honda would make the best decision when going into one of their flagship performance cars...that's not really a direct comparison to the F/H, but it can be something to look in to. I think the K24 hybrid guys run the delete too. EDIT: K20a2 doesn't have BS either.

                                But what happens if you stick a rotating counterweight on the opposite side of the Dremel. Does it spin faster, or are the vibrations just reduced?
                                Last edited by sonikaccord; 02-08-2018, 09:20 AM.

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