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    #31
    Personally, I won't miss old school DOHC VTEC. At least not the small displacement stuff. Revving out to 8-9K is cool... with like 4-5 liters of displacement. Something like a B16 HAD to be revved that high just to keep up with traffic. And they always geared them super short, so 80 on the highway would be at like 5K. The DOHC VTEC engine we really needed- an 8-9K K24 or K25- had to be built in the aftermarket.

    My only fear with these new turbo engines is that response will be shit. The 1.5L runs like 20PSI of boost, the 2.0L runs as much as 23PSI (!!!!). I suppose with all the breathing tech (twin scroll turbo, VTEC and VTC on both cams) they can spool up quickly but back in my day that kind of boost took forever to come on.

    New Accord 2.0T is legit though, the 10AT is a 13 second car I think. No LSD or double pivot knuckle from what I remember like the CTR.


    Originally posted by lordoja
    im with you on that one bro! aint nothing beat free food and drinks any day of the week, even if its at a funeral

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      #32
      Originally posted by gloryaccordy View Post
      Personally, I won't miss old school DOHC VTEC. At least not the small displacement stuff. Revving out to 8-9K is cool... with like 4-5 liters of displacement. Something like a B16 HAD to be revved that high just to keep up with traffic. And they always geared them super short, so 80 on the highway would be at like 5K. The DOHC VTEC engine we really needed- an 8-9K K24 or K25- had to be built in the aftermarket.

      My only fear with these new turbo engines is that response will be shit. The 1.5L runs like 20PSI of boost, the 2.0L runs as much as 23PSI (!!!!). I suppose with all the breathing tech (twin scroll turbo, VTEC and VTC on both cams) they can spool up quickly but back in my day that kind of boost took forever to come on.

      New Accord 2.0T is legit though, the 10AT is a 13 second car I think. No LSD or double pivot knuckle from what I remember like the CTR.
      That is VASTLY exaggerated.

      First, the highest I can ever remember a VTEC engine revving at 80MPH was just under 4K and that was with crazy low gearing. The H22 transmission and the K20 were both about 500-600RPM higher than the F22 at the same speed, which was about 3500RPM. The K20Z3 was a little bit lower by virtue of 6th gear.

      I drove both of those cars 100% stock at altitudes of up to 7,000 feet above sea level and never did have any trouble keeping up with traffic without revving the snot out of it.

      In fact, the K20Z3 easily had more torque than the R18 stock, especially with the lower gearing. It felt relatively weaker due to the massive top end, but it wasn't. With FlashPro on a stock tune, it got a nice solid bump in torque below 3K, a HUGE increase from ~4500-6000 (around 15-20lb ft) and wound out to 8600. The best part was that there was no longer a torque hole, so you literally had multiple gears available at any speed. The cam phasing recalibration gave it a nice resonance between 4500 and 6000 that sounded a lot like the intake resonance on an E36 3 series as well. It simply transformed the car which was no chore as it was. It (K20Z3) was also a lot smoother and more responsive than pretty much any other Honda engine I can think of short of the V6.

      As for the new turbo engines, the 1.5T is a bit of a turd in any kind of sporting application. It doesn't really hit full boost until about 2500-3000 and it falls flat on its face about 5500RPM. It redlines at 6500, but honestly is completely done by 6K. It's really an engine fitted for a CVT. I have driven the new Si and have ZERO desire to own that engine with an MT.

      The 2.0T is a much better engine though. It pulls low, high and in the middle. It is smooth, sounds good and is a relative screamer, pulling all the way to its 7,000RPM redline. A LOT more headroom than the 1.5T too.

      I haven't found an MT sport yet, but the 2.0T basically leverages the ultra aggressive gearing in the 10AT (Honda's first in-house planetary autobox) to pretty much completely mask any boost onset delay. I'm sure the lag would be a lot more noticeable in the MT, but honestly, they probably really optimized it for the AT considering how many people won't buy the MT. I would be tempted for a Touring 2.0T myself.
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        #33
        I think the only reason you "have to rev a B16 to keep up with traffic" is because everyone these days drives like they are responding to a house fire and most of them are in automatics, this gives a pretty decent off the line advantage over a manual car unless you are intentionally launching. Combined with relatively light weight and short gearing I have never really had an issue in the areas I've lived with accelerating at a reasonable rate.

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          #34
          Originally posted by Bunta View Post
          I think the only reason you "have to rev a B16 to keep up with traffic" is because everyone these days drives like they are responding to a house fire and most of them are in automatics, this gives a pretty decent off the line advantage over a manual car unless you are intentionally launching. Combined with relatively light weight and short gearing I have never really had an issue in the areas I've lived with accelerating at a reasonable rate.
          Absolutely. Even in the Accord, I have that issue when I am launching gently. It was always so annoying listening to people talk about how you had to drive the Si like you stole it to "keep up with traffic." I owned it in 2 states where the going rate on the highway is 80-90MPH depending on situation and I very rarely had to go above 2-3K in traffic and I only had to wind it out if I wanted to on the highway. In most cases, I didn't even have to leave 6th gear to keep up with traffic.

          Like I said, the whole thing is greatly exaggerated.
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            #35
            Traffic continues to get faster and faster. The average car can do 0-60 in probably about 7-8 seconds... back when DOHC VTEC 4 banger performance was impressive the average car needed about 2-4 seconds more time.

            And at 85MPH your CSi was turning ~3700 RPM. Combined with Honda's poor NVH and the loud stock exhaust... maybe the CSi wasn't slow, but it definitely sounded like it was straining at such speeds. So the impression was there, and unless you swapped gears you were definitely turning much higher than 2-3K RPM to keep up with 80-90 MPH traffic. Also bringing up the benefits of the Hondata tune legitimize the complaints people had about the car in stock trim.

            For me personally, after my last CB my first vehicle was a ~12 second motorcycle, so maybe that ruined my point of reference. But even when I first started driving, I found the DOHC VTEC powerband to be strange. "All the lag, none of the boost". The problem just came down to displacement. My G37 has a powerband very similar to a tuned DOHC VTEC engine, but it has about 2x the displacement. I rarely go above 4K and can still move through traffic as I please.


            Originally posted by lordoja
            im with you on that one bro! aint nothing beat free food and drinks any day of the week, even if its at a funeral

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              #36
              Originally posted by gloryaccordy View Post
              Traffic continues to get faster and faster. The average car can do 0-60 in probably about 7-8 seconds... back when DOHC VTEC 4 banger performance was impressive the average car needed about 2-4 seconds more time.

              And at 85MPH your CSi was turning ~3700 RPM. Combined with Honda's poor NVH and the loud stock exhaust... maybe the CSi wasn't slow, but it definitely sounded like it was straining at such speeds. So the impression was there, and unless you swapped gears you were definitely turning much higher than 2-3K RPM to keep up with 80-90 MPH traffic. Also bringing up the benefits of the Hondata tune legitimize the complaints people had about the car in stock trim.

              For me personally, after my last CB my first vehicle was a ~12 second motorcycle, so maybe that ruined my point of reference. But even when I first started driving, I found the DOHC VTEC powerband to be strange. "All the lag, none of the boost". The problem just came down to displacement. My G37 has a powerband very similar to a tuned DOHC VTEC engine, but it has about 2x the displacement. I rarely go above 4K and can still move through traffic as I please.
              I don't have that problem in my Lude. It keeps up just fine with it's DOHC VTEC engine. My friend has a stock 8th gen Si, and yes it likes to be at around 5k to drive around traffic but you do not have to floor it everywhere. Even 6th gear can move pretty well...at least for a 2 liter.

              I have never driven a B16 powered Civic/Teggy so I can't comment on the performance of those.

              I think people, the majority of car consumers, do equate NVH and short geared transmissions as a car that struggles. My wife said my Prelude sounds like it is struggling because of the short gears and high rpms. SN:She drives my AV6 so that's a bad reference point. If you are used to a big engine or forced induction all your life and then you go to any small engined car, you will probably be disappointed.

              So now Honda has come through with torquey engines to give the car some balls because they probably realize their competitors give the illusion of a fast car through big low-mid range torque numbers.
              Last edited by sonikaccord; 02-18-2018, 09:06 PM.

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                #37
                Originally posted by gloryaccordy View Post
                Traffic continues to get faster and faster. The average car can do 0-60 in probably about 7-8 seconds... back when DOHC VTEC 4 banger performance was impressive the average car needed about 2-4 seconds more time.

                And at 85MPH your CSi was turning ~3700 RPM. Combined with Honda's poor NVH and the loud stock exhaust... maybe the CSi wasn't slow, but it definitely sounded like it was straining at such speeds. So the impression was there, and unless you swapped gears you were definitely turning much higher than 2-3K RPM to keep up with 80-90 MPH traffic. Also bringing up the benefits of the Hondata tune legitimize the complaints people had about the car in stock trim.

                For me personally, after my last CB my first vehicle was a ~12 second motorcycle, so maybe that ruined my point of reference. But even when I first started driving, I found the DOHC VTEC powerband to be strange. "All the lag, none of the boost". The problem just came down to displacement. My G37 has a powerband very similar to a tuned DOHC VTEC engine, but it has about 2x the displacement. I rarely go above 4K and can still move through traffic as I please.
                So... about 3500 at 80MPH like I said? It's almost like I drove one for 100K miles.

                As on NVH, LOL. Again, drove it for 100K miles every day all over the country. In fact, I took it on a ~4200 mile road trip and it wasn't nearly as "straining" as you imagine. It was actually supremely comfortable and very enjoyable to drive on those trips. Took it on another 1800 mile round trip with a number of friends with no complaints. Not sure if you are trying to expand a brief test drive experience to the real world or going based on what you heard, but it never really made excessive noise unless you were getting on it. The only thing you would ever notice on a long highway trip was the road noise, which WAS noticeable, especially on broken pavement. But that has nothing to do with the powertrain, and the regular Civic was affected by the exact same problem. In fact, the exhaust note on a stock Si was only slightly louder than what Honda tuned into the Accord V6-6 that I currently drive. Even at 8600RPM that engine NEVER sounded strained. I've driven just about every manner of V6, V8, and every brand out there man.

                Like I said, TOTAL exaggeration of reality.

                P.S. the "average" car today runs 0-60 in about 7-8 seconds. The Si was a sub 7 second car bone stock. Of course that was almost 10 years ago, so relative to the market at the time, it was fully competitive relative to its segment. The owner of TOV mentioned the Flashpro on his too (also stock otherwise) and it gained over half a second in the 1/4 mile because of the additional area under the curve. I won't make excuses for Honda's stock tuning choices, but the K20Z3 was a few minor tweaks away from being a much more potent engine stock. Even with stock tuning choices, it wasn't nearly the chore to drive as you try to make it and, in fact, I STILL miss driving it to this day.

                P.S. I never had a problem moving through traffic as I pleased in 6th gear either. And that is from the perspective of what I drive now, which is pretty much the same speed as the Infiniti.
                Last edited by owequitit; 02-19-2018, 11:50 PM.
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                  #38
                  I guess we have different opinions. I found it to be boomy and loud on a test drive which included some time on the highway. It was definitely louder than my wife's MK5 Rabbit and my G37. Some people do cross country trips on sportbikes... that doesn't make sport bikes comfortable for most of the population. Maybe you are just special.

                  For me and the way I drive DOHC VTEC cars just didn't work. Be it the stock K20Z FA5, the tuned H22 Type-S CB I had around 2006, my old roommate's AP1 and various other DOHC VTEC cars I've driven. Just never felt natural and always felt a little wheezy on the small cam.


                  Originally posted by lordoja
                  im with you on that one bro! aint nothing beat free food and drinks any day of the week, even if its at a funeral

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                    #39
                    I definitely can understand how being on the "low cam" feels a bit empty compared to the larger displacement, wider power band of V6's or V8's. In my personal experience the only real difference in daily driving an Si vs. some of the larger engine cars I've driven is the amount of time I held in a particular gear before shifting and the throttle position I maintained. mind you I wasn't going above half throttle or revving out to 5K but I had to get used to applying less gas in the wife's caddy than I am used to in my Accord and in my previous car (Si).

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by gloryaccordy View Post
                      I guess we have different opinions. I found it to be boomy and loud on a test drive which included some time on the highway. It was definitely louder than my wife's MK5 Rabbit and my G37. Some people do cross country trips on sportbikes... that doesn't make sport bikes comfortable for most of the population. Maybe you are just special.

                      For me and the way I drive DOHC VTEC cars just didn't work. Be it the stock K20Z FA5, the tuned H22 Type-S CB I had around 2006, my old roommate's AP1 and various other DOHC VTEC cars I've driven. Just never felt natural and always felt a little wheezy on the small cam.
                      You can dislike the power delivery all you want. That is an opinion.

                      How hard it was straining to drive, how fast it was revving and how it was able to keep up with traffic aren't opinions. I drove it all over the country. It being "strained" on the highway is patently false. The only issue it had on the highway was road noise. And that isn't a statement concluded from a brief test drive.

                      As for not being as quiet as the G37, you seem to be confusing road noise for engine noise. I also wouldn't expect a $21K car to be as refined on the highway as a $40K+ one. That goes without saying.
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                        #41
                        Originally posted by Bunta View Post
                        I definitely can understand how being on the "low cam" feels a bit empty compared to the larger displacement, wider power band of V6's or V8's. In my personal experience the only real difference in daily driving an Si vs. some of the larger engine cars I've driven is the amount of time I held in a particular gear before shifting and the throttle position I maintained. mind you I wasn't going above half throttle or revving out to 5K but I had to get used to applying less gas in the wife's caddy than I am used to in my Accord and in my previous car (Si).
                        That would be the same case with a V6 vs a V8 for instance. If anybody had any expectations to the contrary, then they weren't very realistic.

                        However, any mere assertion that you had to rev or rape the shit out of a K20Z3 to keep up with traffic are simply patently false. I never had an issue in DFW traffic and they drive off the hook stupid over there. I very rarely ever had to go above half throttle or 3K RPM to keep up with traffic.
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                          #42
                          I think the claim that you have to rev the hell out of a small 4 cyl Honda (or pretty much any other small 4) to accelerate fast enough to be safe or practical is usually made by folks that don’t know any better. Most probably just regurgitate what they read or hear from others.
                          My 117hp Fit with its little 1.5L engine could make its way into and through NJ traffic with ease... and 80+ mph highway speeds are very common here. It was no powerhouse, but I never once feared getting rear-ended because I was waiting for it to climb into higher rpms.


                          That being said, I truly like the 3.0 in my 05 Accord. It definitely has a certain personality that I imagine wouldn’t be present in a turbo engine (which will have its own personality. Maybe equally pleasing, maybe better, maybe worse.)






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                            #43
                            Originally posted by deevergote View Post
                            I think the claim that you have to rev the hell out of a small 4 cyl Honda (or pretty much any other small 4) to accelerate fast enough to be safe or practical is usually made by folks that don’t know any better. Most probably just regurgitate what they read or hear from others.
                            My 117hp Fit with its little 1.5L engine could make its way into and through NJ traffic with ease... and 80+ mph highway speeds are very common here. It was no powerhouse, but I never once feared getting rear-ended because I was waiting for it to climb into higher rpms.


                            That being said, I truly like the 3.0 in my 05 Accord. It definitely has a certain personality that I imagine wouldn’t be present in a turbo engine (which will have its own personality. Maybe equally pleasing, maybe better, maybe worse.)
                            That's exactly it. Objectively, the K20Z3 made a lot more torque anywhere on the dyno than the R18, and with the lower gearing, it was putting an even larger margin of torque to the wheels. The reason it FELT like it was weak in the bottom end was due to Honda's stock tuning choices because you had a torque peak around 3K RPM, and then it held steady until about 3.5-4K RPM before it dropped into the mid-range torque hole that lasted until VTEC kicked in. Of course, we know Honda did this so that you would feel the "VTEC just kicked in YO!" sensation, but it was actually harmful to the FEEL of the powertrain. Reflashing it pretty much gave it the same feel as the J30, J35 etc, but with about 1600 more revs and obviously less total torque. It simply transformed the way the car drove and it was unfortunate (IMO) that Honda didn't imbue it with that stock. The same complaint applies to the B16 and H22. Oddly, the B18C in the Integra, the S2000 and the NSX were all tuned properly with a VTEC change roughly where it should have been. With the changeover properly calibrated, the engines feel much like the high-revving engines from BMW, Audi, Porsche etc. However, that said, it wasn't some incapable weak kneed car that couldn't get out of the way of traffic. I never really needed to downshift much at 60-80MPH to keep up with traffic, and I was seldom ever above 3K to match the speeds of lower speed traffic. I was typically in 6th gear by about 35MPH and never had to subsequently downshift, and that counts in DFW, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Houston, LA, San Francisco traffic, etc. I also did several of those long road trips with 600-800lbs of dudes plus luggage in the car over several mountain ranges and labored just didn't really apply.

                            Most of Honda's DOHC VTEC engines actually had really good torque production through the rev range, but Honda's choice to delay VTEC engagement made it feel like they were weak because that torque hole always occurred where it didn't need to be. That said, dyno graphs show that the K20Z3 was actually a little bit stronger than the H22 in terms of torque production and it made more torque over a broader range.

                            Going from a K20Z3 to a J35, I can say obviously that the J series has a lot more torque, but it also highlights that the K20Z3 wasn't nearly as weak kneed as the internet would have you believe. And I can say that at 8600RPM with the cam overlap that Flashpro gave it in the mid-range was an absolutely exhilarating engine to drive. Much like a crotch rocket actually.
                            Last edited by owequitit; 02-20-2018, 08:30 PM.
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                              #44
                              Originally posted by deevergote View Post
                              I think the claim that you have to rev the hell out of a small 4 cyl Honda (or pretty much any other small 4) to accelerate fast enough to be safe or practical is usually made by folks that don’t know any better. Most probably just regurgitate what they read or hear from others.
                              My 117hp Fit with its little 1.5L engine could make its way into and through NJ traffic with ease... and 80+ mph highway speeds are very common here. It was no powerhouse, but I never once feared getting rear-ended because I was waiting for it to climb into higher rpms.


                              That being said, I truly like the 3.0 in my 05 Accord. It definitely has a certain personality that I imagine wouldn’t be present in a turbo engine (which will have its own personality. Maybe equally pleasing, maybe better, maybe worse.)
                              I agree with this. For driving in traffic or any steady state condition, you aren't going to be balls to the wall anyway. Most people have probably never driven a really slow car. Hell, even a little Civic CX/VX with less than 100hp does fine in Atlanta. It may take a while to get up to the upper end of highway speeds (80+), but you won't die trying to merge...errr nvm, you just might with these drivers.

                              There was a video or an article posted about how much of the Hellcat's 707hp that you would use in a daily driving situation. I think the max was around 300 or so. The internet is very good at exaggerating a vehicle's speed or acceleration.

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                                #45
                                Originally posted by owequitit View Post
                                You can dislike the power delivery all you want. That is an opinion.

                                How hard it was straining to drive, how fast it was revving and how it was able to keep up with traffic aren't opinions.
                                Sure they are; they are just opinions you disagree with

                                Originally posted by owequitit View Post
                                As for not being as quiet as the G37, you seem to be confusing road noise for engine noise. I also wouldn't expect a $21K car to be as refined on the highway as a $40K+ one. That goes without saying.
                                OK then, how do you explain it not being as quiet as a similarly priced VW Rabbit? I did not say the Civic had a lot of engine noise, I was referring to the road noise in that context. However, the Si DID have excessive engine noise as well. Over time all that noise is fatiguing.


                                Originally posted by lordoja
                                im with you on that one bro! aint nothing beat free food and drinks any day of the week, even if its at a funeral

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