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What discontinued cars should return, and how would you build them?

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    #31
    Originally posted by Jarrett View Post
    Subaru has said that they keep the BRZ because it attracts customers to dealers that would otherwise have never gone to a dealer. Those buyers can either be persuaded into the higher-margin lineup or relied upon to come back to Subaru when their family has grown in the future. The Scion relationship turned me off of it. Had Toyota been on the other end as they were in other markets, I would have liked them more. I also think that the Scion tC competed too closely with it. Not every buyer is as intentional as enthusiasts are. Some are just looking at cars in a price range and the Scion tC took away from the FR-S/BRZ.

    We'll see what 2017 offers with the availability of the Brembo-equipped model. I still wish they offered one with an FA20D, even if they severely detuned it to 230hp, but I know that would take away sales from their WRX and WRX STi. It's what the car needs, but not what the brand's success needs.
    The BRZ brought something very different to the Subaru brand. I liked that as well. Subarus always seemed like "pick your flavor of AWD car... and slap a turbo on it for added performance!" It was an absolutely effective approach, but it began to seem like they were building everything they could out of the same bucket of Legos. The BRZ broke that cycle. It was very Subaru and very un-Subaru at the same time. If I were to shop Subaru right now, the BRZ would be my #1 pick, by far.
    I always hated the Scion affiliation as well. I'm glad the brand is going away. It was a gimmick brand. The tC was a half-decent Celica replacement, and it was the only car that retained any sense of value to me (aside from the FR-S, of course.) Not enough to buy one, of course (I'd buy a Civic long before I considered a tC...) The xB was quirky in the first generation, and outgrew its cuteness in the second. All the other models were basically throwaway cars. The entire brand was built on the assumption that kids would be excited to point and click their way into a "custom" car. The FR-S was the only genuinely impressive Scion, but I always considered it to be more Subaru than Toyota, since it's powered by a Subaru engine. I've heard mixed tales regarding who put the most work into the development of the car... but I get the impression it was Subaru. I sat in both the BRZ and FR-S at the auto show last year, and the BRZ was much nicer inside. The FR-S felt cheap. Odd, since they're damn near the same car! I wonder what I'll think of the FT86. I hope Toyota lets their version of the car grow up a bit. (I still say an STi turbocharged version and a TRD supercharged version should happen...)






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      #32
      ^^^ I have an xB. It's the most reliable car I've ever had. Owned since 05, it's only needed fluid changes, plugs, and one coil. That and a can of freon for the first time. It's basically a corolla that looks like it can make toast.

      If they made the BRZ awd... I'd buy it.

      Comment


        #33
        ^ AWD would defeat the purpose of that car, in my opinion. Funnily enough, I was once overtaken by a first-gen xB with a bumper sticker that said, "You just got passed by a toaster."

        To be perfectly honest, I probably wouldn't buy any of these ideas mentioned in this thread for the simple fact of my dislike for modern cars, but it's fun to think about. They're just too big and too electronically complex. The only current model I'm truly interested in is the Mustang. Even my RSX is bordering on too new for my taste. It feels kinda fat, every now and then. I'll pass a DC2 in traffic and wonder why I didn't get one of those instead. I mean, it's only one year older than what I have. The '90s are mainly where it's at for me.

        There are a few cars newer (mostly pre-2005) and even more older, but I can't honestly see myself in anything current, aside from that Mustang. I'm not crazy about the Mustang's interior, but what's really keeping me from getting one is the 03-04 Cobra. I will have one one day. Even worse interior, but it does at least have an independent rear end and more than enough power from the factory - with the added fun of obnoxiously loud supercharger whine! I saw one at a show that had the interior panels refinished in leather with French seams. It was nice in there, more than enough to overlook the styling.

        The Challenger, for instance, is a modern car that really frustrates me. I'd get one in a heartbeat if the body wasn't so stupidly tall; I am over the moon on its exterior styling. Similar story with the Magnum. I was actually looking into buying one about a year ago, but the size kept nagging at me (ignoring, for a minute, the fuel economy). The coupe I drive now works for me because most of my driving is without passengers. I don't think I'd feel comfortable piloting all that bulk with just me in it.
        Last edited by CyborgGT; 07-28-2016, 09:41 PM.

        Accord Aero-R

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          #34
          Originally posted by Jarrett View Post
          Subaru has said that they keep the BRZ because it attracts customers to dealers that would otherwise have never gone to a dealer. Those buyers can either be persuaded into the higher-margin lineup or relied upon to come back to Subaru when their family has grown in the future. The Scion relationship turned me off of it. Had Toyota been on the other end as they were in other markets, I would have liked them more. I also think that the Scion tC competed too closely with it. Not every buyer is as intentional as enthusiasts are. Some are just looking at cars in a price range and the Scion tC took away from the FR-S/BRZ.

          We'll see what 2017 offers with the availability of the Brembo-equipped model. I still wish they offered one with an FA20D, even if they severely detuned it to 230hp, but I know that would take away sales from their WRX and WRX STi. It's what the car needs, but not what the brand's success needs.
          For the average person the tC is the better car. Easier ingress and egress, amazing sunroof option and FWD for those who live in a snowy climate. There's still the long held belief that FWD is better than RWD off the shelf, which is arguably true, snow tires obviously change the game.

          Obviously for an enthusiast, the RWD option is so much more appealing.

          The Brembo brake thing seems like a bit of a waste, unless they give you more power. Unless brake fade is an issue with the car (not something I noticed when I auto-x'd one a few years back) big brakes aren't going to do anything for you outside of a racetrack. They'd be better off giving you stickier tires.

          I also have to assume that Subaru probably will still run stainless bolts on their aluminum calipers and wind up with the same galvanic corrosion issues plaguing STIs that have ever seen road salt.

          One of the reasons I sold mine was I knew it was going to be due for rotors soon and typically the calipers are damaged during rotor replacements and at $800/caliper, I wasn't willing to pony up the $3,200 for new calipers. That being said, I'm sure a time sert or a helicoil could have repaired them.

          Originally posted by deevergote View Post
          The Sky/Solstice was also sold as the Opel Speedster in Europe. Saturn and Pontiac are dead, but I believe Opel is still alive and well. It's possible GM would create the next Speedster (the Speedster that preceded the Sky/Solstice model was actually a Lotus Elise!)
          I'd like to see that come back as well. GM lacks a truly sporty convertible. They have the new Buick thing, which looks fantastic, but performs like a steaming turd on an escalator, and weighs far more than a car that size has any right to.
          You'll never see one. If there isn't a platform for one and it's not a halo car like the Corvette, it's just not happening these days. GM only cares about having profitable models, after the whole bailout issue.

          If the Opel GT concept ever went to production, you might see something, but I feel like the closest you'd see is something FWD based on the Cobalt.

          The era of the 2-door is drawing to a close.

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by CyborgGT View Post
            ^ AWD would defeat the purpose of that car, in my opinion. Funnily enough, I was once overtaken by a first-gen xB with a bumper sticker that said, "You just got passed by a toaster."

            To be perfectly honest, I probably wouldn't buy any of these ideas mentioned in this thread for the simple fact of my dislike for modern cars, but it's fun to think about. They're just too big and too electronically complex. The only current model I'm truly interested in is the Mustang. Even my RSX is bordering on too new for my taste. It feels kinda fat, every now and then. I'll pass a DC2 in traffic and wonder why I didn't get one of those instead. I mean, it's only one year older than what I have. The '90s are mainly where it's at for me.

            There are a few cars newer (mostly pre-2005) and even more older, but I can't honestly see myself in anything current, aside from that Mustang. I'm not crazy about the Mustang's interior, but what's really keeping me from getting one is the 03-04 Cobra. I will have one one day. Even worse interior, but it does at least have an independent rear end and more than enough power from the factory - with the added fun of obnoxiously loud supercharger whine! I saw one at a show that had the interior panels refinished in leather with French seams. It was nice in there, more than enough to overlook the styling.

            The Challenger, for instance, is a modern car that really frustrates me. I'd get one in a heartbeat if the body wasn't so stupidly tall; I am over the moon on its exterior styling. Similar story with the Magnum. I was actually looking into buying one about a year ago, but the size kept nagging at me (ignoring, for a minute, the fuel economy). The coupe I drive now works for me because most of my driving is without passengers. I don't think I'd feel comfortable piloting all that bulk with just me in it.
            I feel much the same way about new cars. Too tall (largely due to pedestrian safety regulations, as well as current style trends), and far too heavy. The ND Miata is a marvel in today's car world... it's lighter than pretty much anything other than the cheapest of economy shitboxes! BMW's "little" 2 series tops 3000lbs. The Civic comes close. The Golf can, and does (depending on model.)

            When it comes to performance cars or project cars, I prefer simple. I can't stand all the electronic gizmos cars have today... though most are mandatory safety and emissions stuff, others are luxuries that the market demands. I like fancy gizmos in fancy cars... but I avoid buying said fancy cars for fear of having to fix broken gizmos! New, I'd be all about buying a self-aware S-Class... used, hell no.

            Originally posted by AccordWarrior View Post
            For the average person the tC is the better car. Easier ingress and egress, amazing sunroof option and FWD for those who live in a snowy climate. There's still the long held belief that FWD is better than RWD off the shelf, which is arguably true, snow tires obviously change the game.

            Obviously for an enthusiast, the RWD option is so much more appealing.

            The Brembo brake thing seems like a bit of a waste, unless they give you more power. Unless brake fade is an issue with the car (not something I noticed when I auto-x'd one a few years back) big brakes aren't going to do anything for you outside of a racetrack. They'd be better off giving you stickier tires.

            I also have to assume that Subaru probably will still run stainless bolts on their aluminum calipers and wind up with the same galvanic corrosion issues plaguing STIs that have ever seen road salt.

            One of the reasons I sold mine was I knew it was going to be due for rotors soon and typically the calipers are damaged during rotor replacements and at $800/caliper, I wasn't willing to pony up the $3,200 for new calipers. That being said, I'm sure a time sert or a helicoil could have repaired them.



            You'll never see one. If there isn't a platform for one and it's not a halo car like the Corvette, it's just not happening these days. GM only cares about having profitable models, after the whole bailout issue.

            If the Opel GT concept ever went to production, you might see something, but I feel like the closest you'd see is something FWD based on the Cobalt.

            The era of the 2-door is drawing to a close.
            Sadly, you're probably right. GM is putting all of their "hey, look how sporty I am!" energy into Cadillac, of all brands. It's cool, but it's clearly an effort to get themselves on a level that is competitive with BMW, Benz, and Audi. GM wouldn't be building a CTS-V if they didn't have an M5 to compete with... or an ATS-V without an M3. They wouldn't have the lesser V-Sport models if it weren't for AMG Sport and the like.
            Chevy is back to doing what they do best. Corvette, Camaro, and automotive sedatives. Ford is all about souping up their existing models, but I don't see anything new coming from them anytime soon. I WOULD like to see Ford give a little more attention to the Lincoln brand, however. GM stepped up their game by developing unique offerings for Cadillac. Ford is still badge-engineering Lincolns. The current Lincoln lineup is attractive enough, and they check most of the important boxes (aside from V8 powered RWD, which occupies the top seat of most luxury marques...) Still, the corresponding Fords are very obvious if you know what you're looking at!

            Volvo really is the one company that is in the best position to release a new sports car. They're currently working on two new models that will be using a Geely-developed platform, which will probably make or break the brand. If the Chinese don't ruin Volvo, the company is in the perfect position to expand their lineup.






            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by deevergote View Post
              I feel much the same way about new cars. Too tall (largely due to pedestrian safety regulations, as well as current style trends), and far too heavy. The ND Miata is a marvel in today's car world... it's lighter than pretty much anything other than the cheapest of economy shitboxes! BMW's "little" 2 series tops 3000lbs. The Civic comes close. The Golf can, and does (depending on model.)

              When it comes to performance cars or project cars, I prefer simple. I can't stand all the electronic gizmos cars have today... though most are mandatory safety and emissions stuff, others are luxuries that the market demands. I like fancy gizmos in fancy cars... but I avoid buying said fancy cars for fear of having to fix broken gizmos! New, I'd be all about buying a self-aware S-Class... used, hell no.


              Sadly, you're probably right. GM is putting all of their "hey, look how sporty I am!" energy into Cadillac, of all brands. It's cool, but it's clearly an effort to get themselves on a level that is competitive with BMW, Benz, and Audi. GM wouldn't be building a CTS-V if they didn't have an M5 to compete with... or an ATS-V without an M3. They wouldn't have the lesser V-Sport models if it weren't for AMG Sport and the like.
              Chevy is back to doing what they do best. Corvette, Camaro, and automotive sedatives. Ford is all about souping up their existing models, but I don't see anything new coming from them anytime soon. I WOULD like to see Ford give a little more attention to the Lincoln brand, however. GM stepped up their game by developing unique offerings for Cadillac. Ford is still badge-engineering Lincolns. The current Lincoln lineup is attractive enough, and they check most of the important boxes (aside from V8 powered RWD, which occupies the top seat of most luxury marques...) Still, the corresponding Fords are very obvious if you know what you're looking at!

              Volvo really is the one company that is in the best position to release a new sports car. They're currently working on two new models that will be using a Geely-developed platform, which will probably make or break the brand. If the Chinese don't ruin Volvo, the company is in the perfect position to expand their lineup.
              Honestly, I don't get why Lincoln is still making cars. What is their brand purpose? I've actually lost track of their amorphous blobs that are all named nearly identical (see Infiniti). It reminds me of George Foreman naming all his kids George.

              At least Ford has some interesting ways you can check boxes on the car (see the Fiesta SFE) and some uniqueness. Automotive packaging, while incredibly useful from a production standpoint has taken a lot of fun out of purchasing cars. The thing I still never understand is why some options aren't allowed on certain configurations. I couldn't get the upgraded stereo in my truck with the manual transmission. With the automatic, it's a non-issue. What is physically different between the two models?

              Comment


                #37
                Lincoln probably still exists only because of China. Same with Buick. The Chinese are loving big luxury cars right now, so at least over there Ford and GM are profiting pretty well off those brands.

                With your stereo complaint, maybe it has to do with the cabin harness? It's probably easier for them to integrate the shifter wires and stereo wires into one harness... and they're too lazy to make a stand-alone harness for the premium stereo. That's my only guess.
                Last edited by CyborgGT; 07-29-2016, 09:21 PM.

                Accord Aero-R

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by CyborgGT View Post
                  Lincoln probably still exists only because of China. Same with Buick. The Chinese are loving big luxury cars right now, so at least over there Ford and GM are profiting pretty well off those brands.

                  With your stereo complaint, maybe it has to do with the cabin harness? It's probably easier for them to integrate the shifter wires and stereo wires into one harness... and they're too lazy to make a stand-alone harness for the premium stereo. That's my only guess.
                  I never thought of that actually. Probably the only conceivable option realistically. I'll just run my own upgrade and call it even.

                  I remember back in college I was building a Sentra SE-R on Nissan's website and I couldn't get a subwoofer with Brembo brakes...because they occupy the same space, obviously.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    I wouldn't be so sure that Ford's reasoning doesn't have something to do with wanting to put you into a different trim level. In 2014, you couldn't buy a single cab, short wheelbase XL, XLT or STX truck with the EcoBoost. They did this because they wanted you to buy that configuration in the Tremor. The Tremor was an FX variant that you could buy as an FX2 or FX4 and had a sticker of $45,000 for the FX2. They want to tailor how you buy a performance variant because they can charge more for it. The Tremor was a flop, by the way.
                    My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

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                      #40
                      Lincoln has a lot of options... and they're basically an entire brand full of Lexus ESs... badge-engineered Fords that are cushier, quieter, and more feature-rich. They're not bad cars... but they're really just fancy Fords. They've become a Buick competitor (and Buick's continued reason for existence IS China... so it's likely that's the reason for Lincoln as well!) Lincoln basically just replaced Mercury. Ford effectively eliminated Lincoln, and then renamed Mercury "Lincoln".

                      If Ford wants to renew Lincoln, it'll take three models, I think. 1) They need a proper 3-series fighter. That's an absolute necessity... and every legitimate luxury company has one. Benz has the C-Class, Audi has the A4, Lexus has the IS, Infiniti has the... what the hell are they calling the G37 now? Cadillac has the ATS. The only way to be on par with the big boys is to step into the ring with the 3 series. 2) Lincoln needs something with more than 6 cylinders and RWD power (or AWD power...) Any automaker without V8+ and RWD is usually relegated to second-rate luxury... Volvo, Acura, and what used to be Saab... 3) They need a roadster of some sort... if only to differentiate themselves from the Fords on the market at the moment. Lincoln retains a frumpy image, with some weird techie integration happening. The market they're aiming for would probably give some serious attention to an SLK/Z4 style offering (more so than Cadillac's target market.)






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                        #41
                        Actually, thinking about Mustangs, I'd love for Ford to bring back the Boss 429. A 7.0L could nicely shut down the Mopar SRT-8 set, as well as most Chevies. For some reason I'm just not finding myself a huge fan of modern Shelby.

                        Accord Aero-R

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                          #42
                          I'm guessing it's already been mentioned, but a new Honda S2000, or Prelude would be sweet!
                          I'm faster then a prius

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                            #43
                            Mazda needs to bring back the RX-7
                            ditch the rotary and go with a high rev Turbo inline 4.

                            Prolly a motor set up similar to the F20C with a twinscroll turbo.
                            easy 500hp


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                              #44
                              They can make a 4-cyl sports car, but it's not an RX without a rotary. An FD would probably be a smart purchase about now. With the way old NSX prices shot up with this new one's release, and it's only a matter of time before Mazda brings back a rotary car, buy now and profit later.

                              Accord Aero-R

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                                #45
                                There is a reason rotary engines never caught on.....they suck. 200-something horsepower and 18 mpg out of a 1.3L? The emissions are likely terrible too and would never pass EPA qualifications these days. Never mind an average service life of 140k miles or less.
                                1992 Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser

                                1986 Chevrolet C10|5.3L|SM465|Shortbed|Custom Deluxe

                                1983 Malibu Wagon|TPI 305|T5 5 speed|3.73 non-posi


                                1992 Accord Wagon (RETIRED)

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