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Old 10-05-2018, 12:42 AM   #1
carguy41361
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1992 Accord long brake pedal...Need help/advice

1992 Accord LX 2.2 AT 275,000 miles on odometer
I am new to Honda & Forums so have mercy if I am doing something wrong.

I have read so many postings about no brakes, spongy brakes, fading brakes and pedals that go to the floor but have not found my problem or a fix that might work.

I refer to this problem as a long brake pedal. What I mean is I get no pedal pressure until I press the pedal what feels like almost to the floor (within inches). I have driven and raced many different cars and have never experienced this problem. The pedal seems to have the proper free play and the E brake is fully engaged at 5 clicks (can pull hard to 7 clicks). I am used to starting to feel pressure shortly after freeplay with a very linear feel to the pedal until brakes fully lock. Although it is an automatic I could never heel and toe with brakes with this much movement before feeling any pressure. I received this problem from previous owner and after replacing front and rear brakes and MC and bleeding all fluid including bench bleeding MC the problem still exists. I have read that this is an inherent problem with this year and model but there must be a fix because it does not feel comfortable at all. I know you should never have to adjust the push rod but I feel that is my next move but am afraid that as they build heat the brakes may tend to drag. If anybody knows about a fix for this problem I would really appreciate any solutions as it is not a good feeling for a spirited driver like myself and I would not feel comfortable passing this problem on to anyone else.

I really like the engineering and simplicity of this older Honda but have only driven a few blocks at a time because of this brake issue.

Thanx in advance for any and all help. Peace
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Old 10-05-2018, 08:48 AM   #2
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Is the master cylinder a new or remanufactured part?
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Old 10-05-2018, 09:18 AM   #3
carguy41361
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Thanx F22Chris for the response. The MC was replaced recently and I do not think it was Honda OEM part. I know the brakes were replaced poorly and cheaply. I have taken them completely apart and there was no difference. I have searched many forums and posts and was curious if there is more than 1 MC for my 1992 Accord. I have driven, raced and repaired/upgraded many different cars and it just feels like the pushrod is way out of adjustment. I was going to try adjusting push rod even though you should never have to. The pedal feels like the right height (I will measure before any adjusting) but it has to travel about 2-3" before I get any feedback. I read about problems like this but never a solution. Thanx for any help. Is there an upgraded brake package that might work for this problem and also work better for my spirited driving?
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Old 10-05-2018, 12:52 PM   #4
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I ask because if the replacement master cylinder was a remanufactured unit, odds are itís a faulty part. Iíve NEVER had success with a rebuilt master. It sounds like a faulty master - it doesnít necessarily have to be OEM Honda, but one that is 100% new is recommended. If you have a part number on the master cylinder you purchased I might be able to see if itís rebuilt or new.
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Old 10-05-2018, 07:05 PM   #5
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I was able to find out there are a few different Master cylinders and brake boosters that will bolt in and possibly work. Does anyone know the difference between these? Does anyone know where I can find schematics with dimensions for any of these parts? Do you know if any of these boosters are made by anyone? Honda parts catalogue shows they are all discontinued.

4-door LX AT
4-door DX AT
2-door LX AT
MC = 46100-SM4-A04
VB = 46400-SM4-003

4-door EX AT
2-door EX AT
5-door EX AT
MC = 46100-SM4-G54
VB = 46400-SM4-951

5-door LX AT
MC = 46100-SM4-A04
VB = 46400-SM5-A01

I will let everyone know if I find a solution in case anyone finds yourself with this same problem. In all my years this is a first for me. Changing those rear brake shoes were easy compared to this.
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Old 10-05-2018, 07:34 PM   #6
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Thanx F22Chris, I did not purchase or originally install this MC but I plan on pulling it soon to measure the push rod and free play. I was told it was new and you can tell as it is spotless and the rest of the car was just a mess. Whoever did the brake job did not know what they were doing as things were overtightened or rounded off and no lube on contact points among other things. I originally thought it just needed bled and then I thought rear brakes but after replacing rears and bench bleeding MC and about a pint of fluid through the system I thought it would be better. I have experienced different problems with brakes but this is different than anything in the past. You have to push the pedal about 3" before you get any feedback. It seems like the wrong MC or a part was left out or repaired wrong. You guys are the Honda experts and I value your many years of experience. If my son stops by this weekend I will bleed another pint through the system and see if I can feel any difference. Am I bleeding properly: Left rear--right front--right rear--left front? Where would I find the numbers? Are they cast into it or stamped into it? I look to folks like yourself for solutions to Honda problems as this is a new brand for me. I will pull as soon as the rain stops as I am here in Seattle and it is coming down in buckets. Thank you very much for your time and expertise. Any ideas are greatly appreciated. Peace
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Old 10-05-2018, 08:03 PM   #7
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Thanx again for the help. I got this response back from an inquiry today.

It appears to be a difference in trim level. Unfortunately, we don't have any sort of diagrams for such older models (or even new models). I would recommend talking with your local dealership for something like that.

What I can tell you is that for your VIN number, 46100-SM4-A04 and 46400-SM4-003 are the ones that match your VIN.

Thank you!

--
OEM Part Source Customer Service
OEMPartSource.com

F22Chris would those numbers be cast or stamped into the part somewhere? I would go remove it real quick but if you know Seattle it is raining buckets right now. Thanx for the help. It has drums in the rear and non ABS.
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Old 10-05-2018, 08:55 PM   #8
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I was hoping you might have bought it from a local parts store. In that case we could have figured it out based on the aftermarket part number on a receipt or something of the like. There are different master cylinders from DX/LX vs EX but Iím not 100% sure on what said differences are. Hopefully somebody here will chime in.

Usually the bleeding process is farthest from the master to the nearest. So right rear, left rear, front right, front left.

If it was replaced with a rebuilt unit, it would look pretty just as if it were new. The companies that rebuild them sand blast and paint them.
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Old 10-06-2018, 08:21 AM   #9
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Hello, the 92 model year does have 2 master cylinders and at least 2 vacuum boosters (I never realized the wagon had a unique booster). The DX and LX cars use a 15/16” MC with a vacuum booster sized to that MC. The EX cars use a 1” MC with a larger vacuum booster. In my experience the push rod lengths between the vacuum boosters is different, the EX booster having a longer adjustment.

From experience if you put a 1” MC on a DX/LX vacuum booster there is a void before the push rod engages the MC when braking which leads to a very long pedal dead space when operating the brakes. It sounds like the MC you have is a 1” unit when it should be a 15/16” for your LX; there should be a number inside of a circle on the body of the MC that indicates the size. Could this be your issue?

Edit: Putting a 1” on a LX would require the rear hard line fitting to be changed to a larger fitting, so this scenario is less likely the more that I think about it.

Last edited by SSMAccord; 10-06-2018 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 10-06-2018, 10:00 AM   #10
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That sounds about right. When I had to do my ABS delete I had to switch the
MC to a 15/16" bore & match it with a 15/16" BB because my CB is an EX
with the 1" bore.
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Old 10-06-2018, 09:40 PM   #11
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Nice. I definitely wasnít sure on those numbers. Since the rear fitting isnít compatible, it seems like a faulty MC.. Unless the fitting was changed. I tried to get some info off RA to see the difference in the the MCís for the OP, but couldnít get anything & the pictures were extremely similar.

If the brakes were done poorly & the master was replaced, odds are it was replaced with a cheap unit too..
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Old 10-07-2018, 08:32 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSMAccord View Post
Hello, the 92 model year does have 2 master cylinders and at least 2 vacuum boosters (I never realized the wagon had a unique booster). The DX and LX cars use a 15/16Ē MC with a vacuum booster sized to that MC. The EX cars use a 1Ē MC with a larger vacuum booster. In my experience the push rod lengths between the vacuum boosters is different, the EX booster having a longer adjustment.

From experience if you put a 1Ē MC on a DX/LX vacuum booster there is a void before the push rod engages the MC when braking which leads to a very long pedal dead space when operating the brakes. It sounds like the MC you have is a 1Ē unit when it should be a 15/16Ē for your LX; there should be a number inside of a circle on the body of the MC that indicates the size. Could this be your issue?

Edit: Putting a 1Ē on a LX would require the rear hard line fitting to be changed to a larger fitting, so this scenario is less likely the more that I think about it.
^^^^^ This. And if your mixing ABS brake boosters with non ABS cars (visa-versa) it can throw you for a loop too.

I do know my 93 has never had instant brake. IE - touch your toe on the pedal and get brakes instantly (like new cars do now). I think I have 1-2" of play before something starts to happen.
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Old 10-07-2018, 09:31 PM   #13
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Now that I have RL calipers installed my peddle is long. (EX abs model) Longer than before. I was wondering if I could adjust the rod some. My car does not idle well either after driving for a while. The rpms drop low to almost stalling. When I pump my breaks the idle comes back up to it’s correct spot. I was thinking it’s either my fuel pump, a shot brake booster or I maybe need the rod adjusted.
Another idea I had was to use a combo of a master from a TL and a booster from a 97-01 prelude. The prelude has a bigger brake setup first off and the brake booster should bolt right to an abs equipped CB. The master on the prelude has its line ports in the wrong spot but the TL master is the same 1” with the line ports lined up like the CB. The only hurdle is that the ports on the TL master have 12mm threads where the CB has 10mm. I need an adapter but I haven’t found one yet.
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