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F22a4 In-Vehicle Stock Engine Refresh Experience

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    #16
    Originally posted by evil_demon_01 View Post
    Would have been curious to see before / after dyno results as well.
    Are you working this everyday Cisco or just when you have spare time?
    Once this is finished I think it should be stickied, Have you taken any pictures during the process?

    Work looks good so far, keep at it
    Definatly interested to see the final results
    Dyno results are irrelevant. This is a repair job for my brother to have this CB7 last him longer. I am working on my spare time, since I learned I needed to install new piston rings.

    Sorry, we did not have a working digital camera when I started. Now we do, but I do not intend for photos. My wife wants her car in the garage before winter hits hard.

    My final results will be comparing it to the before results I calculated, as mentioned.
    Last edited by HondaFan81; 12-09-2009, 10:36 AM.
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      #17
      Originally posted by wed3k
      please dont put moly lube on non-arp rod studs. the moly is more slippery than engine oil and will give a false reading.
      Wes, sorry. You are correct, I had a typo.

      There is no need for moly lube on rod studs, they install so easily. What I meant was a small dab of moly lube on the head studs. I have learned from experience the stock head studs do not install well with motor oil, as the Honda service manual states. If you don't, it will squeak and prematurely reach torque (torque spikes), without properly achieving clamp load. Obviously that can lead to headgasket issues, etc.
      Last edited by HondaFan81; 12-10-2009, 10:21 AM.
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        #18
        I'm not sure if I mentioned, but in removal of these various engine parts I noticed camshaft lobe wear and corresponding rocker arm pad wear. This is my brother's F22a4 engine that I'm simply doing a quick refresh on to keep him running another 2 years or so, keeping the costs down as much as possible on this repair. Otherwise, I'll just reassemble as-is.

        To clarify, I would be swapping the better condition rocker arms with the original camshaft caps that match the original head I had reconditioned. I will also be using the better condition camshaft and checking for proper clearance. The key here is to keep matching camshaft caps with the same head, which will involve me completely diassemblying the rocker arm assembly.

        Anyone have decent condition F22a1 or F22a4 camshaft and rocker arm assembly you would like to send for a good cause?

        PM me please and I'll pay shipping. Thanks.
        Last edited by HondaFan81; 12-10-2009, 04:23 PM.
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          #19
          Cisco, why do you think ARP includes different torque specs for motor oil and moly lube?

          Usually, using motor oil, you'll have to torque about 5-10ft/lbs tighter than you would with a moly lube. But this HIGHLY depends on the metals being torqued.
          Last edited by HondaFan81; 12-10-2009, 10:19 AM.

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            #20
            Wait a sec, there was an honest mistake/typo here. No need for anything other than motor oil on the rod fasteners. For rod fasteners, yes you are both correct to not use moly lube. Thanks for catching the typo. It has been corrected.

            I previously typed the wrong component and was thinking of head studs, not rod fasteners. I posted my reasons a few posts above, reference that please.

            Side Note:

            This information is straight from me, not some source. I do have knowledge on fasteners.

            Fastener materials have differences in tensile strength. This affects clamp load/preload. In the end, whether you use motor oil or moly lube, the same clamp load needs to be achieve for "proper torque". The lube differences come into play between the threads, as they change the friction between the materials, so the point at which target clamp load is reached can change.
            Last edited by HondaFan81; 12-10-2009, 10:35 AM.
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              #21
              I clarified my intentions for the better condition rocker arm assembly and camshaft a couple posts above. Some thought I was actually going to transfer the entire rocker arm assembly onto a non-matching head. Sorry for the confusion. This is good information for people to know.
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                #22
                Originally posted by HondaFan81 View Post
                Personally, I keep cranking until gauge tops out and take note on # of cranks. I use that as reference for rest of cylinders.

                Just to clarify, I will be doing a leakdown test after accumulating 400 miles on the refreshed engine, not a compression test. At this point, I will know the new gas mileage and oil consumption rate.

                FYI: I've never done this refresh with engine block in vehicle or used a ball-hone, new experience. I'm curious to see how it works, perfect opportunity. I'm not looking for perfection, but improvement over the original condition, that is all my brother needs and can afford.
                Just make sure not to hone to much. You could actually cause more bad than good. Opening up the piston to wall clearances can cause some bad things. On of which is piston knock. Also I was taught only to do 5 cranks for a compression test by my shop teacher.

                86 4Runner - 22RE 5spd, 4" Lift, 35x12.5R15 BFG Km2's, 4.10 gears
                "The Turtle"
                DD/Trail Rig/Mud Bug

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                  #23
                  93F22A6,

                  I appreciate the advice. That is what I planned to do, minimal passes to get a hone pattern. I was even considering new rings and no hone, but I'm worry that the rings will take forever and not seat at all.

                  I realize this is not the "professional procedure", but I am doing the best in the situation I'm in. In the end, I want it to be better than it was originally, that is my goal.
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                    #24
                    Originally posted by HondaFan81 View Post
                    93F22A6,

                    I appreciate the advice. That is what I planned to do, minimal passes to get a hone pattern. I was even considering new rings and no hone, but I'm worry that the rings will take forever and not seat at all.

                    I realize this is not the "professional procedure", but I am doing the best in the situation I'm in. In the end, I want it to be better than it was originally, that is my goal.
                    I would suggest new rings and hone. You might as well put new rings in, not to much cost wise. Also line the bore with oil when you hone them and spray them clean with some parts cleaner. Also on the hone there is a certain speed to go. Not to fast but not to slow. Your looking to get the 30-45 deg hone rings if you know what I'm saying.

                    86 4Runner - 22RE 5spd, 4" Lift, 35x12.5R15 BFG Km2's, 4.10 gears
                    "The Turtle"
                    DD/Trail Rig/Mud Bug

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                      #25
                      Read a few posts above, it mentions I have new OEM piston rings already. I was stating I was considering whether to hone or not. Yep, I got the RPM suggestions, below 1000 RPM basically. Honda service manual states 60 degree honing pattern, but I'm not going to be able to control that. I would have to control RPM and axial speed for that. I'm using a 320 grit ball-hone (Flex-hone brand) in a cordless drill. I bought honing oil with the ball-hone, even got a nylon cylinder brush for the cleaning.
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                        #26
                        Originally posted by HondaFan81 View Post
                        Read a few posts above, it mentions I have new OEM piston rings already. I was stating I was considering whether to hone or not. Yep, I got the RPM suggestions, below 1000 RPM basically. Honda service manual states 60 degree honing pattern, but I'm not going to be able to control that. I would have to control RPM and axial speed for that. I'm using a 320 grit ball-hone (Flex-hone brand) in a cordless drill. I bought honing oil with the ball-hone, even got a nylon cylinder brush for the cleaning.
                        You'll be able to get roughly in that same deg when your doing it. It'll come to you.

                        86 4Runner - 22RE 5spd, 4" Lift, 35x12.5R15 BFG Km2's, 4.10 gears
                        "The Turtle"
                        DD/Trail Rig/Mud Bug

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                          #27
                          Performed Following Tonight:

                          - Protected block bottom end.
                          - Ball-honed all cylinders with honing oil.
                          - Thoroughly cleaned all cylinders.
                          - Lightly coated all cylinders with motor oil.
                          - Cleaned out oil jet orifice and replaced O-ring.

                          Note:

                          In regards to honing, I used my cordless Dewalt drill and chucked the 320 grit ball-hone to it. I set it to # 1 speed setting (2 speeds), which is for 450 RPM max. I did 3 full passes per cylinder, with a fairly quick vertical speed (by hand) to get a decent pattern.

                          Oil jet orifice O-ring was completely brittle and definitely needed replacement.
                          Last edited by HondaFan81; 12-14-2009, 10:37 AM.
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                            #28
                            Completed Tonight 12/21/09:

                            - Installed piston rings & clocked them. (Install oil spacers first, then 2 oil rings)
                            - Cleaned rod bearings & journals.
                            - Installed piston/rod assemblies into cylinders, torqued rod nuts 34 lb-ft.
                            - Installed oil pickup tube with new gasket, torqued 9 lb-ft.
                            - Covered top of block and installed oil pan hand tight for bottom protection.
                            Last edited by HondaFan81; 12-21-2009, 10:46 AM.
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                              #29
                              What way did you clock the rings?

                              86 4Runner - 22RE 5spd, 4" Lift, 35x12.5R15 BFG Km2's, 4.10 gears
                              "The Turtle"
                              DD/Trail Rig/Mud Bug

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                                #30
                                Clocked rings according to factory service manual.

                                FYI: Accomplished more last night, updated in previous post. Oil pan install next, then installing reconditioned head & wrap up. Realistically, I might get at this again between Christmas and New Year, if I have downtime.
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