G22 Build

[Ernestox6]

Hey guys. I know I don't post very often, but I'd like your input on an idea that's been growing in my head for some time. I want to build a 200whp N/a F22a1 with an H22a4 head. Now, I've been researching everything for some time and can see where I am basically at. Heres my plan.

-F22a1 block decked .020, bored 2mm over
-H22a4 head milled .030
-H23a 87mm pistons
-F22 crank
-H23 oil cooler
-F22a6 windage tray
-H22 intake runners and IAB plate
-F22a6 plenum and TB
-Stock H22 exhaust manifold
-Aiming at 11.5:1 CR
-Stock intake
-stock exhaust
-Stock injectors
-H22 secondary vtec cam lobes regrinded, leaving the primarys alone
-Internals balanced
-H23 redline

I know that Stock H22's get roughly 160-170whp stock. With what I have on my list, I've estimated 170-180whp.

I'm stumped on what ECU to use. My first thought was to just use the H22 ECU simply because its going to be an H22 vtec head. But then I thought about using the F22b1 ECU because 1) It has vtec 2)its more economical than an H22 ECU(H22's run pretty rich). Also, when Vtec kicks in, the sensors will increase fuel delivery on their own. Tying to keep fuel consumption to a minimum(at least til vtec)

If you guys haven't noticed, I'm trying to basically redevelop the F22 into a MORE efficient in both fuel and performance. I've given this a lot of thought and I haven't really found any reason why this setup would not work. I need you guys to CHALLENGE my theory because that way I have all my basis covered and will not go into this blindfolded.

Also, what else can I do to raise the hp? Something other than I/H/E please. I'm trying to keep this as stock(looking) as possible.

[mcdizzle]

you are going to need a chipped p28 and have the car tuned, plain and simple. or get a full standalone ecu from a company like AEM.

either go full H22 or don't swap. f and h series frankensteins are not as reliable as the b series frankenstein motors. this topic has been talked about time and time again

[Ghetto_CB7]

Better off

You are better off buying an h22 and putting the f22 crank and rods in it, then doing this. You are already paying for the most expensive part of the h22, the head. So you might as well do it right and get the whole motor then put the other internal in it.

[Accrdwgnguy]

Why A6 plenum, and not the bigger volume H23/H22 plenum?

Also a full F22 build, high comp pistons, ported F22A head, basically everything you have listed there, will net your goal of 170 to 180 whp. Why go with a frank?

And please tune it if you are doing anything more than a mild cam. Or its just not going to run right, and be very inefficient.

[deevergote]

I understand the goal for efficiency... a 200whp F22A wouldn't be as efficient. I despise frank motors, but at least you seem to be taking an intelligent approach to it, so I can respect that. You're boring the block to match the head, which is a good start.

The P13 would be the best stock ECU for this motor, as it is already intended to be used with a high-compression engine and premium fuel (the F22B1 is not very high compression, and it is tuned for 87 octane.) Ideally, though... you should go with a properly tuned P72 (to easily maintain your IAB system.)

Why are you doing a frank instead of just building a full H22? Is it due to the longer stroke of the F22? The iron cylinder walls? (which will be weakened with a 2mm overbore... sleeving would be wise, and you could do that with an H22 block just as easily, with better head fitment.) Or just because you have an H22 head and an F22 block to work with?


I honestly think a full H22 build would present fewer unexpected issues, and would produce similar results. In fact, a bone-stock-block H22A with a Euro R intake manifold, Bisimoto header (or other high-quality header... SMSP, Mugen, HyTech...), a mild P&P, and some camshafts that offer a near-stock low profile, and a wild VTEC profile will give you what you are looking for... especially once you get it tuned on a dyno.

[Ernestox6]

I understand the goal for efficiency... a 200whp F22A wouldn't be as efficient. I despise frank motors, but at least you seem to be taking an intelligent approach to it, so I can respect that. You're boring the block to match the head, which is a good start.

The P13 would be the best stock ECU for this motor, as it is already intended to be used with a high-compression engine and premium fuel (the F22B1 is not very high compression, and it is tuned for 87 octane.) Ideally, though... you should go with a properly tuned P72 (to easily maintain your IAB system.)

Why are you doing a frank instead of just building a full H22? Is it due to the longer stroke of the F22? The iron cylinder walls? (which will be weakened with a 2mm overbore... sleeving would be wise, and you could do that with an H22 block just as easily, with better head fitment.) Or just because you have an H22 head and an F22 block to work with?


I honestly think a full H22 build would present fewer unexpected issues, and would produce similar results. In fact, a bone-stock-block H22A with a Euro R intake manifold, Bisimoto header (or other high-quality header... SMSP, Mugen, HyTech...), a mild P&P, and some camshafts that offer a near-stock low profile, and a wild VTEC profile will give you what you are looking for... especially once you get it tuned on a dyno.

You all have very valid points and I hope to address as much of them as possible. First though. The reason for me doing this build is because I have F22a1, F22b, F22a6 longs blocks and an H22($150 with IM no TB on craigslist) and H23 head(Free) that I acquired through several trades and part outs. Although a lot of you may argue that It would be MUCH more cost effective and overall smarter idea to just go with an H22 swap with some minor work to achieve the same results more reliably, the F22a has proven to me time and time again its worth and I would prefer doing a build on a block that I trust and hold dear.

On the other hand, I have no problem with the H22 block at all and I agree that I could save a lot of time and money by just doing the swap, but I simply want to be different.

Now, after I posted my thread I did a bit more research and decided to go standalone. It was to my understanding that the AEM EMS 4 was a standalone system, but if I was mistaken, the fact of the matter would be that I will be running a standalone system.

Reasoning behind the F22a6 plenum; 1) It bolts straight onto the H22 runners 2) I already have it 3)Bigger means more air, and more air means more fuel, and more fuel. Also the since the F22a6 plenum is a little smaller, bottom and mid-range torque will be nice for what I want it to do. 4)IAC, FITV and vacuum lines are much easier to work on on the F22a6 plenum. I don't like how the H22 plenum is setup with the throttle body bolted to the FITV.

Keep the questions comming! I like this

[deevergote]

I wouldn't really say that it's different... I can name a number of people on this site alone that have done the H22 head on the F22 block (that does NOT make it a "G series"... the G series already exists, and it has 5 cylinders.)
Of those people I know that have done it, I would say that at least 80% of them have blown their motor. The F22 block is indeed reliable... but when you start mixing and matching parts, you drastically reduce that reliability. It CAN be done, but your understanding of both engines, and the differences between them, has to be spot-on. Even then, it's a gamble.

We'll help in any way we can regardless... but I'm telling you now that I truly think you're going about a good idea in a very bad way.

With the parts you have, you could sell or trade them to acquire an H22 block.



Also, with that tiny throttle body and plenum, you may get nice results down low... but if you follow through with camshafts that are more aggressive on the VTEC lobes, you will most certainly choke the engine out up high. Not enough air could result in too much fuel. Too much fuel can be just as destructive as not enough.

[PR CB7]

you are going to need a chipped p28 and have the car tuned, plain and simple. or get a full standalone ecu from a company like AEM.

either go full H22 or don't swap. f and h series frankensteins are not as reliable as the b series frankenstein motors. this topic has been talked about time and time again

and on every single one of these topics, you see me
like on every thread of these i post, if you cant build an engine, you shouldnt be attempting to build this engine, because clearly you will fuck up
you are just swapping a head ladies and gentlemen plain and simple
i will clearly make a DIY thread on how to build one if i keep seeing these comments (im pretty sure some wont like this)

to the OP, if you are planning to keep the stock 6.5rpm rev limit i suggest you stay away from this headswap, you can safely rev to 7.5-7.8 on a freshly balanced crank

i dont know how the h23 pistons will react to the iron liners on the f22
i recommend you bore to 86mm, and use a set or PRB-00 pistons (k20s)
being that these pistons if you dont deck the block or the head that much will put you to a 11.5-12 static compression ratio also these are high rpm piston so the skirt on it is smaller and the weight is less too

if f22's gain from a h23 plenum, this motor will to, please get rid of the a6 plenum

i dont know where are you going to get the re-grind from, but i suggest you call delta, being that this is going to have a longer stroke and a shorter redline, delta can make a regrind that will help you pick up the power from 4-7.5

i love these engines, and are awsome to build, i know some of you dont like them, but please find a reason to, not because you read this on a forum and decided to jump on the bandwagon

[deevergote]

and on every single one of these topics, you see me
like on every thread of these i post, if you cant build an engine, you shouldnt be attempting to build this engine, because clearly you will fuck up
you are just swapping a head ladies and gentlemen plain and simple
i will clearly make a DIY thread on how to build one if i keep seeing these comments (im pretty sure some wont like this)

to the OP, if you are planning to keep the stock 6.5rpm rev limit i suggest you stay away from this headswap, you can safely rev to 7.5-7.8 on a freshly balanced crank

i dont know how the h23 pistons will react to the iron liners on the f22
i recommend you bore to 86mm, and use a set or PRB-00 pistons (k20s)
being that these pistons if you dont deck the block or the head that much will put you to a 11.5-12 static compression ratio also these are high rpm piston so the skirt on it is smaller and the weight is less too

if f22's gain from a h23 plenum, this motor will to, please get rid of the a6 plenum

i dont know where are you going to get the re-grind from, but i suggest you call delta, being that this is going to have a longer stroke and a shorter redline, delta can make a regrind that will help you pick up the power from 4-7.5

i love these engines, and are awsome to build, i know some of you dont like them, but please find a reason to, not because you read this on a forum and decided to jump on the bandwagon

Your posts in these threads are getting better and better, Oscar. I can barely argue with your logic at all with this one! Of course, you know I have legitimate reasons why people shouldn't build these engines (and I also know that anyone that has a legitimate, well-thought-out reason of their own to build one shouldn't be swayed in the least by my words.)


Fuel economy seems to be just as much of a focus as power production... so the high compression K series pistons might be a bad idea. If fuel economy can be kept at a good level, the engine will still require premium fuel, which I assume is contrary to the goal (unless the fuel economy goal is for range, and not thrift.)



What I'm gathering here is that he is trying to basically build an engine that functions like an economical, anemic, bone-stock F22A down low... when he wants to pinch pennies just rolling around town. Then when he puts the pedal down and gets to VTEC range, he wants modified H22 results. An interesting idea... but it still seems quite half-baked to me.








Also, something I forgot to include in my previous post... the AEM standalone is a good choice, but do you know how to use it? With such a custom build, it'll take some care to really tune it properly.

[Ernestox6]

Your posts in these threads are getting better and better, Oscar. I can barely argue with your logic at all with this one! Of course, you know I have legitimate reasons why people shouldn't build these engines (and I also know that anyone that has a legitimate, well-thought-out reason of their own to build one shouldn't be swayed in the least by my words.)


Fuel economy seems to be just as much of a focus as power production... so the high compression K series pistons might be a bad idea. If fuel economy can be kept at a good level, the engine will still require premium fuel, which I assume is contrary to the goal (unless the fuel economy goal is for range, and not thrift.)



What I'm gathering here is that he is trying to basically build an engine that functions like an economical, anemic, bone-stock F22A down low... when he wants to pinch pennies just rolling around town. Then when he puts the pedal down and gets to VTEC range, he wants modified H22 results. An interesting idea... but it still seems quite half-baked to me.








Also, something I forgot to include in my previous post... the AEM standalone is a good choice, but do you know how to use it? With such a custom build, it'll take some care to really tune it properly.

Thanks for the advice PR CB7

Deevergote: You've got my plan almost dead on. I have no problem running on premium, and as you said I am aiming on range and not thrift. The highest octane anywhere around my area is 91 so I want to keep my static compression relatively close to the limits of 91. I gave the cams a more of a thought process and I did consider delta in the process of regrinding. I've also decided that with the help of forged internals, I can exceed the limits of the OEM redline and go a bit higher safely. So somewhere around the area of 7.5-8k it my target RPM.

I was planning on decking the block and milling the head simply for the fact that I want a nice flat surface for when I install my head-gasket. How much would depend on how much more I would need to reach my compression ratio goal. If I don't have enough, Ill remove the minimum and get pop up pistons instead.

You're right about the choking on the F22a6 plenum. Getting my hands on an H23 plenum and TB is pretty easy around here.

I am still learning how to tune, but I've contacts that can take care of the serious tuning. I can tune enough to get it to run, but that's about it for right now.

[wed3k]

im not sure if you've calculated compression distance and deck height but with practically virgin f22a block, f22 rods and h22 pistons, im roughly around .040 out the deck.

and you've decked it quite a bit. h22 rods would be pointless too because they are longer to make up for the stroke.

so basically your setup isnt feasible atm.

mines pretty much ready to go, i have my h22 head rebuilt, all the parts minus bearings and a headgasket. I just need to torque plate hone it. theres roughly around .080 iron sleeve left after going 2mm over.

[Ernestox6]

im not sure if you've calculated compression distance and deck height but with practically virgin f22a block, f22 rods and h22 pistons, im roughly around .040 out the deck.

and you've decked it quite a bit. h22 rods would be pointless too because they are longer to make up for the stroke.

so basically your setup isnt feasible atm.

mines pretty much ready to go, i have my h22 head rebuilt, all the parts minus bearings and a headgasket. I just need to torque plate hone it. theres roughly around .080 iron sleeve left after going 2mm over.

I'm not going to be using H22 rods... I understand where you're going with this though, and it does make sense. I was going to play with the milling, decking, and dome size after I decided on which pistons exactly to get.

[deevergote]

Just remember... if you mill your head too much, and something happens down the road and you warp it... it will be junk. You can only remove so much material before it's no longer salvageable. Seeing as a blown head gasket is a possible issue when it comes to headswaps, risking warping a milled head with work done to it might not be a good idea!

[Skeet Skeet]

I would personally use an F23a block. Its got a 55mm main (correctness?) and of course a tad bigger bore. K20 pistons drop right in giving you around 11 c/r.

Also Delta cams suck balls. I had one at one point and my friend had one before his head gasket popped. The torque from the F22 disappeared and came into what I like to call imaginary VTEC at 4k rpm. Its good for racing, but thats about it. I would get a Bisimoto cam designed for the engine and not some generic bullshit. Gas mileage took a hit to about 23 mpg on a great dynopack tune.

Honestly, just get an H22. You will have more than enough torque and it has real VTEC. You will need to do months worth of research to do this right.

[wed3k]

if anything, you should be hacking material off the pistons.