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Old 10-31-2006, 12:59 AM   #1
F22Turbo702
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Very unique intake valves

So, a guy named Vince who is a tinkerer/inventer approached me several months ago about a very unique valve design that he resently patented.

He wants to put a set of these valves into my engine for testing purposes and to get some data on them. He's only used them in V8's, and other domestic engines and is curious as to how much of a performance impact they will have on an econo-box 4 banger.

Now, I'm sure most of you haven't the slightest idea as to what I'm talking about...a valve is a valve right?...wrong.

These valves that he has designed use a CNC machined floating ring around the valve to serve as a floating seat, this floating seat allows the valve to close itself when intake air tries to reverberate back into the manifold. Follow me so far?

These valves are only for the intake side of the head and pretty much allow you to have as much overlap as mechanically possible without any losses in the low end, as a matter of fact these valves cause the torque curve on the low-end of the powerband to see dramatic increases. Also, because the valve essentially closes itself when air tries to escape the combustion chamber it makes even the most wildly cammed motor idle like stock.

I've seen the prototypes for these valves and I have also seen the documentation and dyno sheets. The best example he gave me was a Jeep rock crawler, they loaded it on the dyno, and placed a load on it, in order to maintain that load without stalling the motor, it had to be held at nearly 4000rpm. They then tested the same vehicle with his intake valves installed under the same load, and the Jeep idled through the load at only 550rpm...that's astonishing in my book. Also, the torque curve was impressive and climbed nearly 50lbs. ft.over the baseline, at only 800rpm...

Now, Vince basically wants me to install these intake valves and the largest overlap cam I can find. He has guarenteed that even with something similar to the Delta 282 race cam, my car will idle even lower than stock and will come to life at 500rpm and all the way till the cam runs out of juice, no 4000-7000rpm powerbands, just constant, consistent power.

I'll be seeing him again at SEMA tomorrow to give him one of my F22a intake valves so that he can make the prototypes for me. I just wanted to tell you guys about this amazing opportunity and I wanted to get your input. I know that the idea is a bit out there, but I have seen the proof and I understand the logic behind the design. This design also works well on turbo motors, allowing greater overlap in the cam without sacrificing any power. Let me know what you guys think, and I will keep you posted. I also need to know if anyone has specs on the Delta 282, as well as personal experience with idle, powerband, piston-valve clearance, etc. I will try to get some pictures or diagrams of the valves if he'll give them to me, but I know that these are still in the prelimenary stages of design and manufacture and he is still rather hush-hush about them.

-Kyle
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Old 10-31-2006, 01:48 AM   #2
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I'm skeptical but trial and error never hurt anybody. If It ends up working and you see the dramatic increases and improvements, how much would the valves and the cam be sold for???
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Old 10-31-2006, 06:27 AM   #3
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sounds like an infomertial

correct me if im wrong but in a turbo w/ overlap situation the intake valves donít really matter because if the exhaust valve is open when air is being forced in there its going to start pushing out the exhaust valve before its closed whether or not you got some special intake valve
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Old 10-31-2006, 01:36 PM   #4
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think again

If theres no more air that can be crammed into the cylinder the piston going up will create a pressuredifferance causing this valve to shut. No matter what pressure.
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Old 11-02-2006, 09:52 AM   #5
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interested...would love to try them out myself actually.
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Old 11-02-2006, 10:54 PM   #6
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Well, I talked to Vince, and gave him one of the f22a's intake valves and he is going to starting working on it sometime next week, after SEMA is over.

I had Dennis from HP Heads (one of the best head guys in Vegas) take a look at the design. He believes that will work well, but he's not sure about two issues; noise and long term street use. He said these may cause some noise because the rings move and then the valve shuts on them, also could have issues if the rings become dislodged from their seats around the valves or get stuck in the closed position. But other than that he thought there was sound logic behind the design, and the dyno doesn't lie.

For any of you that may not have understood what I meant when I explained how these work...consider it "true" "variable valve timing". I say that because the valve will shut, not when the cam determines it should, but when cylinder pressure is high enough to close it on its own. Vince also explained to me that as the RPM increases the valves will end up shutting closer and closer to where they "should", so these are really designed to take up the area of the powerband where a larger cam doesn't make as much power, it fills in the torque curve. I'm still trying to get a copy of the before and after dyno graphs from the Jeep test.

-Kyle
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Old 11-17-2006, 04:45 PM   #7
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The theory is brilliant, but i have a difficult time picturing that actual setup in the combustion chamber. Any pictures, dyno sheets, anything would be awesome too see. It would be great to have for everyone running the 272s in thier daily driver if they do turn out to be quiet and durable enough
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Old 11-17-2006, 05:53 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiccanvampier
Well, I talked to Vince, and gave him one of the f22a's intake valves and he is going to starting working on it sometime next week, after SEMA is over.

I had Dennis from HP Heads (one of the best head guys in Vegas) take a look at the design. He believes that will work well, but he's not sure about two issues; noise and long term street use. He said these may cause some noise because the rings move and then the valve shuts on them, also could have issues if the rings become dislodged from their seats around the valves or get stuck in the closed position. But other than that he thought there was sound logic behind the design, and the dyno doesn't lie.

For any of you that may not have understood what I meant when I explained how these work...consider it "true" "variable valve timing". I say that because the valve will shut, not when the cam determines it should, but when cylinder pressure is high enough to close it on its own. Vince also explained to me that as the RPM increases the valves will end up shutting closer and closer to where they "should", so these are really designed to take up the area of the powerband where a larger cam doesn't make as much power, it fills in the torque curve. I'm still trying to get a copy of the before and after dyno graphs from the Jeep test.

-Kyle
It is hard to visualize, but the theory seems logical.

Since power at an RPM is all about breathing at that RPM, I can see where this would have a profound effect. It allows us to remove the HIGH RPM/LOW RPM compromise.

My guess would be that overall gains will be relative to displacement, but if he can get this to be reliable at high RPM's, I think he may have a winner.
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Old 11-18-2006, 09:25 PM   #9
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I got ahold of Vince and he directed me to his website where he explains the valves. The link below is an article that was written about the technology, check out his site, it explains a lot.

http://www.omnivalves.com/news-photos.html

-Kyle
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Old 11-19-2006, 10:31 PM   #10
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Makes a lot more sense now i my head with pics but damn!! those are some thick ass valves!
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Old 11-20-2006, 01:17 AM   #11
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Those are pics of the prototypes, the actual production valves are the same size as stock valves. The only thing that sucks is that the floating seat has to be machined before the valves are assembled, so I need to get my head finished and give him the valve seat angles so the valves and seats will match.

-Kyle

PS- glad it makes more sense now.
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Old 11-20-2006, 03:06 AM   #12
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Man I was looking towards the future ( for efficiency sake) and waiting for
honda to bring out a Gas direct injection engine to swap in so I'm not throwing all my $$$ into one tank of gas every week but, This sounds and looks like a great idea. Once all bugs are worked out for noise ( well really durability) that dude is gonna make some serious $$$.
I hope this will be an " affordable " technology when it's first released.
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Old 11-22-2006, 08:00 PM   #13
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as long as they are pretty durable.
i'll be investing in them when they come out. ha
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Old 11-26-2006, 02:52 PM   #14
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if this really works like they say on that website u better be good good friend with that guy cuz his going to be one rich son of a gun.
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Old 11-26-2006, 06:06 PM   #15
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Very nice.

It seems to me that as long as they can withstand the RPMs and the metallurgy is right, these could be very awesome.

The way you described them makes a lot more sense now.

I would consider a set.

Hondas are about the best engines to test their durability on too.

Although a crotch rocket would probably work too.
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Old 12-22-2006, 01:07 AM   #16
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Vince gave me an update today, he said he has all of the measurements he needs and is starting to make my valves. They will be done sometime in January.

The valve I gave him was taken from my spare head so I will be having that one cleaned and gone through prior to installing them. I'm going to run his valves with the 272 Delta cam on an otherwise stock head; no porting, valvesprings, etc.
I think this will be a good test bed seeing as how a lot of people are running the 272 right now. The only question I'm having a hard time with is what is the piston to valve clearance on the f22a? If anyone has this info I would greatly appreciate it, preferably info on the 272 piston to valve clearance.

I'll keep you updated as things progress. I will be sending my cam out to Delta after the 1st of the year when I'm done moving into my new apartment.

-Kyle
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Old 12-22-2006, 01:31 AM   #17
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Is this something that is gonig to start being manufactured and produced in the near future or like 15 years from now, oh and yea if this works and is an actual working alternative, that guys gonna be a millionaire and very famous. hope this works out.
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Old 12-22-2006, 02:53 AM   #18
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first of all i'd like to say for the 2% of the whole thing that i actually understood. YAY!!! if it works. I want in.

for the 98% that i don't understand... yeah.... uh.... ignorance is bliss?
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Old 12-22-2006, 10:54 AM   #19
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A while back in a Popular Mechanics magazine there was a guy in Brazil that started inventing super efficient heads and valves. with a whole bunch of different wierd cuts in it (like a headlight reflector) and was getting upwards of 50MPG out of an old 50s chevy V8. He ended up being murdered 1 month after the article went out.
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Old 12-22-2006, 11:05 AM   #20
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murdered? O_O
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