8th gen Civic sedan love....

[Makaveli2k]

But as far as the AWD Civic, it wouldn't even have to be SH-AWD. Hell the (Real Time?) AWD system from the CRV with a rearward bias would suffice. Keep in mind I'm only talking about a limited edition performance model (though an AWD option would set it apart from most competitors). Like the S2000 it would IMO be a worthwhile exercise in previously unchartered territory for Honda. I know a turbo AWD Civic would be be better than a WRX or Lancer Ralliart, and such a model would help further establish Honda's superiority in all segments.

I think you're downplaying Subaru and Mitsubishi a little bit with the last line there.

Extensive competitive Winning history in rally racing should not be overlooked.

Although Honda isn't exactly new to 4wd, I still think they have a a bit more ways to go until they can consider themselves on par or comparable to Audi's Quattro, or Subaru, and Mitsubishi's 4wd systems.

Although it's been said before I'll just re-iterate for emphasis. You're taking the civic and basically turning it into something DRASTICALLY different then what it is. Honda didn't make their name on the civic by marketing it as a "sports" car if you will. Reliable, cheap, easy on the gas, easy to drive is what it is.

Most of those things go out the window when you incorporate an AWD system and Forced induction.

Interesting Idea none the less but in my mind, totally not feasible.

[Julianachos]

IMO, I think they should come out with a limited edition Si-model that's equipped with SH-AWD.

[ONEKLEAN91]

ive never really looked at the sedens there clean when hooked up right. ive always been a fan of the coupe

[gloryaccordy]

IMO, I think they should come out with a limited edition Si-model that's equipped with SH-AWD.

Yea I think it would be something interesting to try. Like a Civic version of the Golf R32. That's what the Mugen Civic should have been. Ppl would pay 40K for that.

[Julianachos]

I definitely would buy a Mugen Si if it had SH-AWD.

[owequitit]

I think you're downplaying Subaru and Mitsubishi a little bit with the last line there.

Extensive competitive Winning history in rally racing should not be overlooked.

Although Honda isn't exactly new to 4wd, I still think they have a a bit more ways to go until they can consider themselves on par or comparable to Audi's Quattro, or Subaru, and Mitsubishi's 4wd systems.

Although it's been said before I'll just re-iterate for emphasis. You're taking the civic and basically turning it into something DRASTICALLY different then what it is. Honda didn't make their name on the civic by marketing it as a "sports" car if you will. Reliable, cheap, easy on the gas, easy to drive is what it is.

Most of those things go out the window when you incorporate an AWD system and Forced induction.

Interesting Idea none the less but in my mind, totally not feasible.

You've clearly never experienced SH-AWD. It is more capable than any of the systems you mentioned and was the among first to not only have a variable front to rear bias, but the ability to transfer left to right as well. Traditionally, AWD (including quattro, symmetrical and the other systems) typically had fixed power ratios.

It can send up to 70% of the engine's power to the rear wheels and of that it can send up to 100% to either side. Mitsubishi copied it with their latest EVO X, and a system that sort of duplicates it in Audi's is now available. Honda took the unquestionable lead with SH-AWD, and it isn't much heavier than traditional AWD.

If Honda built a Civic Si with SH-AWD and a modified version of the RDX's powertrain, it wouldn't have a lot of trouble besting the EVO. That is just frank and honest. The EVO is based on a Lancer, which is no more a car than the Civic, so if Mitsu can do it, Honda could too if they wanted.

Also, it isn't like Honda hasn't raced enough to prove they know how to setup a chassis or design a performance car. They have competed and won in every form of motorsports they have entered, including rallying. They just weren't in the same classes as Subie and Mitsu because they didn't have a full on AWD car in the upper classes.

Like I said, it isn't that Honda can't. It is that they won't.

[Law Grandeur]

http://civic.hondaphil.com/index.php

paddle shifters

I like

[gloryaccordy]

You've clearly never experienced SH-AWD. It is more capable than any of the systems you mentioned and was the among first to not only have a variable front to rear bias, but the ability to transfer left to right as well. Traditionally, AWD (including quattro, symmetrical and the other systems) typically had fixed power ratios.

It can send up to 70% of the engine's power to the rear wheels and of that it can send up to 100% to either side. Mitsubishi copied it with their latest EVO X, and a system that sort of duplicates it in Audi's is now available. Honda took the unquestionable lead with SH-AWD, and it isn't much heavier than traditional AWD.

If Honda built a Civic Si with SH-AWD and a modified version of the RDX's powertrain, it wouldn't have a lot of trouble besting the EVO. That is just frank and honest. The EVO is based on a Lancer, which is no more a car than the Civic, so if Mitsu can do it, Honda could too if they wanted.

Also, it isn't like Honda hasn't raced enough to prove they know how to setup a chassis or design a performance car. They have competed and won in every form of motorsports they have entered, including rallying. They just weren't in the same classes as Subie and Mitsu because they didn't have a full on AWD car in the upper classes.

Like I said, it isn't that Honda can't. It is that they won't.

Porsche first introduced side to side torque biasing in the 959, and Nissan brought it back in the R33 GT-R Spec V. SH-AWD is cool, but it's definitely nothing new.

Otherwise I agree. I mean the CSi will sell, it's great within the lineage of DOHC VTEC Civics.... but if Honda wants to get back some of the share they lost to either more powerful or AWD competitors it would just be nice to see something different.

[Makaveli2k]

You've clearly never experienced SH-AWD. It is more capable than any of the systems you mentioned and was the among first to not only have a variable front to rear bias, but the ability to transfer left to right as well. Traditionally, AWD (including quattro, symmetrical and the other systems) typically had fixed power ratios.

You're absolutely right, as far as I know this is a moderately/pretty recent system that they implemented into their recent generation of vehicles.(Not going to mention the Prelude). But I will comment on what I've heard, read, and seen.

can send up to 70% of the engine's power to the rear wheels and of that it can send up to 100% to either side. Mitsubishi copied it with their latest EVO X, and a system that sort of duplicates it in Audi's is now available. Honda took the unquestionable lead with SH-AWD, and it isn't much heavier than traditional AWD.

Honda may have been first to implement the system, but I'm still going to go out on a limb and say they haven't been able to make any valiant claims as to why their system is any better then the others. So you can put power to either whees on an Axel. All I can see is an explanation as to Why it is supposedly better there's no concrete hard evidence proving that it's better than the other systems ie. I want comparison, a proven track record of the SH AWD system being compared to the rest and beating them again and again. It's kind of hard to believe in this system when I look up Youtube to see exactly what this system has to offer and encounter this!

Honda built a Civic Si with SH-AWD and a modified version of the EVO's powertrain, it wouldn't have a lot of trouble besting the EVO. That is just frank and honest. The EVO is based on a Lancer, which is no more a car than the Civic, so if Mitsu can do it, Honda could too if they wanted.

There is no doubt that they can do it. But the Mitsubishi ralliart is based on the Evo engine and is infact turbocharged to begin with. So in my eyes it's a bit unfair to say putting in a whole different engine setup then what originally is in the Civic Si to begin with would be a bit of an unfair competition. Just my opinion though.

If we were to say put in the AWD system into the Civic Si as it is. Say give it a few ft/lbs of torque, and a little bit more HP. I don't think it will fair so well. Being that the Civic is more geared towards High end power and less torque, it will not go well with the AWD system. The more components involved with incorporating an AWD system and actually getting the engine to sufficiently move those components would require a motor that is more capable down low to produce enough torque to adequately move the vehicle, not to say the Civic Si's motor is incapable but, I firmly believe it won't be enough in order to make it "Mind blowing"

Also, it isn't like Honda hasn't raced enough to prove they know how to setup a chassis or design a performance car. They have competed and won in every form of motorsports they have entered, including rallying. They just weren't in the same classes as Subie and Mitsu because they didn't have a full on AWD car in the upper classes.

Like I said, it isn't that Honda can't. It is that they won't.

I agree somewhat to what you're saying, Honda does have good history in Motorsport competition. But the fact of the matter is we're debating the AWD systems in which unfortunately they haven't competed in. And although I may be alone in my view of this but, in order to sell an Idea you must first prove it worthy. Subaru and Mitsubishi as well as Audi to name a few have done so wonderfully.

And yes I totally agree, they have the technological know how in order to do these things, but I'm not really one for speculation. I have to see in order to believe. Remember that episode of the Simpsons where Homer built that car for his brothers company? It looked good on paper but it failed miserably.

On a side note check this out.

[owequitit]

Porsche first introduced side to side torque biasing in the 959, and Nissan brought it back in the R33 GT-R Spec V. SH-AWD is cool, but it's definitely nothing new.

Otherwise I agree. I mean the CSi will sell, it's great within the lineage of DOHC VTEC Civics.... but if Honda wants to get back some of the share they lost to either more powerful or AWD competitors it would just be nice to see something different.

You know Glory, I generally find it highly suspect how you want to spooge over everyone else's technology but want to discount Honda's. It is either a lack of understanding of the differences, or a bias. I am not sure which.

The R33 featured an active rear LSD that could send power if a wheel slipped. Much like the LSD in the Civic SI does. That is DISTINCTLY different than what SH-AWD is capable of, as in addition to transferring power if a wheel slips it ALSO has the ability to overdrive the wheel receiving power.

Now, here is why that is significant. It is significant because while the LSD will transfer available power to the wheel with the most traction, it will not overspeed the wheel to create a yawing moment, which is EXACTLY what SH-AWD does. Think a more advanced version of ATTS, which is essentially what it is. That was also a Honda first technology.

Dynamcially, an AWD car with a rear LSD will stabilize, whereas a car with an overdriving technology such as SH-AWD, AYC, or Audis new rear sport differential will actually cause the rear to yaw to the outside of the turn, much as RWD would. FYI, BMW is also on the cusp of releasing such a system.

The Porshce 959 was the first to offer power transfer differentials, but it was on a pre-selected basis only and was not seamless, as capable or automatic as SH-AWD is.

The fact of the matter is that SH-AWD took all of the most desireable traits of AWD and combined them in one package. Then to that, they added the ability to actually overdrive the loaded rear wheel which produced a pronounced and noticeable yaw, tightening the line of the car and actually allowing you to apply power BEFORE the apex of a turn. It also allowed a nose heavy (60% front distribution) car such as the TL to actually outturn and outhandle the stallwart benchmarks of the sport sedan class.

SH-AWD was a technology such that everybody else pretty much had no choice but to copy it. Of course, there are some specific areas where Acura has the ability to improve on the system if they so choose, so they aren't exactly out of ideas either.

[h22sparkle]

Hey owequitit got a question for ya instead of sending off your ecu for a re-flash can you please explain more on flashpro. I dont have a honda but what they do offer is 3 things either send off my pcm or flash it myself through the computer is that what flash-pro is? I program all my tuned through diablosport.

[gloryaccordy]

Where did I splooge over other's technology? I'm just saying Honda wasn't the first. As far as specific yaw-changing systems Mitsubishi introduced such a system in their EVO IV (way back in the 90s).

Plus as I discussed on another forum (are you George Knighton at Honda-Tech), the initial applications of SH-AWD seem silly. Who is taking RLs & TLs to road courses? Wouldn't that technology be more appreciated and appropriate in something like a turbo Civic?

[h22sparkle]

Where did I splooge over other's technology? I'm just saying Honda wasn't the first. As far as specific yaw-changing systems Mitsubishi introduced such a system in their EVO IV (way back in the 90s).

Plus as I discussed on another forum (are you George Knighton at Honda-Tech), the initial applications of SH-AWD seem silly. Who is taking RLs & TLs to road courses? Wouldn't that technology be more appreciated and appropriate in something like a turbo Civic?

I hope for hondas sake that it would be fair in price because if thats the case youd start seeing people lookin at another model.

[owequitit]

You're absolutely right, as far as I know this is a moderately/pretty recent system that they implemented into their recent generation of vehicles.(Not going to mention the Prelude). But I will comment on what I've heard, read, and seen.

First, lets hope your arguements never have to actually stand on scientific merit.

Second, you are confusing marketing with engineering. SH-AWD is a completely effective technology. 90% of people can't tell you what an LSD does either, but does that make it less effective as a technology? How about VTEC? Just because most people don't understand it, doesn't mean it is less effective as a technology does it? There is a difference between YOU not knowing what it does, and it actually being hype.

Honda may have been first to implement the system, but I'm still going to go out on a limb and say they haven't been able to make any valiant claims as to why their system is any better then the others. So you can put power to either whees on an Axel. All I can see is an explanation as to Why it is supposedly better there's no concrete hard evidence proving that it's better than the other systems ie. I want comparison, a proven track record of the SH AWD system being compared to the rest and beating them again and again. It's kind of hard to believe in this system when I look up Youtube to see exactly what this system has to offer and encounter this!

1) Honda doesn't make valiant claims about any of their technology. That is just how they roll. Why is everyone else scrambling to introduce a similar system if SH-AWD is all hype? BMW, Audi, Mitsu have all done it now. They are all derivative systems of SH-AWD.

2) Is posting a video of a stupid driver supposed to illustrate something? You are either not searching long enough, or are trying to hand pick videos to suit your arguement. Like I said, hope it doesn't have to stand scientifically.

Try these on for size, as they are both more educational and more technically correct:





http://world.honda.com/HDTV/news/2004-4040401a/

http://world.honda.com/automobile-technology/SH-AWD/

Interestingly, they don't mention the fact that SH-AWD actually overdrives the rear wheel with receiving the traction, although it is implied in the large torque vector in the SH-AWD video diagram. The overdrive function is somewhat explained at 8:40 in the first Honda video. For the record, the RL diff overdrives the rear wheels about 10%, which directly creates a pronounced yaw.

You, on the other hand, provide a video that shows some retard trying to pull of out of an icy parking spot by keeping his wheels turned toward the curb. Are you somehow under the dillusion that a Subaru or Mitsu is incapabable of getting stuck? Are you also under the dillusion that they would have just jumped over that curb? The point? Poor choice of video.

The general consensus from people who have used it on the snow is that it is awesome.

Try this on for size:

There is no doubt that they can do it. But the Mitsubishi ralliart is based on the Evo engine and is infact turbocharged to begin with. So in my eyes it's a bit unfair to say putting in a whole different engine setup then what originally is in the Civic Si to begin with would be a bit of an unfair competition. Just my opinion though.

You will see with the TL SH-AWD 6MT what the system is actually capable of once it gets out more because it is really the first chassis/tranny setup that really utilizes SH-AWD to its capabilities.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t_drive_review

http://www.insideline.com/acura/tl/2...rst-drive.html

Now, imagine a car that is some 10-15" shorter, nearly 1000lbs lighter and has a similar power output. How do you suppose it would do?

Also, I want to make sure I understand this correctly. The Lancer EVO/Ralliart comes with a boosted engine from the factory in addition to AWD, but somehow if Honda did the same thing it would be unfair? Are you fucking SERIOUS?!?!?! Sounds like a rationalization of a preference to me. How the fuck would it be unfair?

If we were to say put in the AWD system into the Civic Si as it is. Say give it a few ft/lbs of torque, and a little bit more HP. I don't think it will fair so well. Being that the Civic is more geared towards High end power and less torque, it will not go well with the AWD system. The more components involved with incorporating an AWD system and actually getting the engine to sufficiently move those components would require a motor that is more capable down low to produce enough torque to adequately move the vehicle, not to say the Civic Si's motor is incapable but, I firmly believe it won't be enough in order to make it "Mind blowing"

This pretty much got washed out the window with the last part I quoted. You think? Really? I guess Honda should just not compete if they choose. Afterall, if they built an equivalent car and summarily waxed your shit all over the floor, it would be "unfair." Give me a fucking break.

It is OK though, because you can still sleep easily at night knowing that building this car isn't Honda's style, so you can rest assured that your bias is safe. For now...

I agree somewhat to what you're saying, Honda does have good history in Motorsport competition. But the fact of the matter is we're debating the AWD systems in which unfortunately they haven't competed in. And although I may be alone in my view of this but, in order to sell an Idea you must first prove it worthy. Subaru and Mitsubishi as well as Audi to name a few have done so wonderfully.

No, we are talking about the relative ability of a company to build a competitive car. Honda's forms of motorsports achievements are higher than Mitu's and Subies. I am not knocking WRC, but the truth is if you think it is hard to win in rally racing try bagging an F1 championship sometime. The levels of technical requirement are nowhere near the same, and haven't been close since Group A was banned. You are on the one hand, trying to build up Mitsubishi's and Subaru's technical prowess, while trying to downplay Honda's. It isn't going to work.

The ONLY reason you haven't been convinced of SH-AWD's abilities yet is because prior to the TL, and especially the TL 6MT, they have only put SH-AWD in 1 squishy suspension luxo barge, and 2 huge SUV's. The TL is itself no lightweight piece of equipment, but it finally has a suspension setup worthy of the AWD system, and with the 6MT the ability to finely control the power output and engine speed to really exploit the advantages. And it is still a 60% front biased nose heavy pig, to boot.

If Honda put that system in even one small, lightweight, high power density car, you would not be saying the same things. The difference between you and me is that I can see through the marketing problems, and the cars it has been equipped in and see the merit of the technology. Verification of that merit is the fact that everyone else is scrambling to copy it.

And yes I totally agree, they have the technological know how in order to do these things, but I'm not really one for speculation. I have to see in order to believe. Remember that episode of the Simpsons where Homer built that car for his brothers company? It looked good on paper but it failed miserably.

Yes, because not only is The Simpons completely based on reality, but I am sure Honda is right there on the level with Homer's brother...

[owequitit]

Hey owequitit got a question for ya instead of sending off your ecu for a re-flash can you please explain more on flashpro. I dont have a honda but what they do offer is 3 things either send off my pcm or flash it myself through the computer is that what flash-pro is? I program all my tuned through diablosport.

It allows you to update the ECU through the OBD port. But, where it is significant is that it is the 2nd solution that allows you to do so on a Honda product (Honda works hard to keep people from tamerping with their ECU's even changing the code completely every few years), and it is more capable than most port flashing systems.

It essentially combines the capabilities of a full Hondata system with something like what the domestic's use where you just plug it in and upload a new map. The nice thing is you still have the ability to fully tune it, but rather than having to change the chip in the ECU everytime, you just plug it in and upload it. It also has a stock map, so you can return it to stock once you are done.

The really cool feature though is that Hondata spent a bunch of time with various Si's on the dyno, and developed a shit ton of "base" maps for different bolt on combos. So for instance, if you are running an AEM cold air, DC Sports race header and some TB spacer, there is a good chance they have a map for your car, rather than having a generic basemap that isn't ideal or needs to be optimized. They have just intakes, exhausts, combos etc. They also have some for different cam combos and stuff IIRC, as well as giving you the ability to run MAF and MAP (like stock) or MAP only. In addition to that, they have a stock MAP that basically just optimizes VTEC changeover and throttle mapping to eliminate the rev hang and fix the crossover.

It will also do a ton of datalogging etc.

http://www.hondata.com/flashpro.html