8th gen Civic sedan love....

[owequitit]

Ah I dig what you are saying. I guess by cheaper I meant a little smaller. But it will be tough because I wouldn't want Honda to get caught in a "Ford Contour" trap where people are turned off by a Civic that costs as much but is smaller. The Civic should be about the size of a Focus or so IMO.

And the TSX is a great size. It's pretty much identical in footprint to the CB7, which I've comfortably driven 5 normal size adults in on a road trip. Honestly, I think the TSX should have been the 7th gen Accord, with the USDM Accord moving upscale to compete with the likes of the Avalon/Maxima. I definitely sense a downsizing of the "mid size" car coming in the name of being green, and I am hoping Honda has the foresight to capitalize on that.

And the CB is a clear example of how restraint and clean details can age well. As much as I like the 8th gen Civic I do not see it aging very well.

The TSX is a little tight for anything other than average sized people. I used to carry people all the time in my CB7 on long road trips, and the bigger guys wanted more room. The could get something between the 4th and 6th gen in exterior size that would fit the requirement nicely. Also, frankly, the time spent in the back of a 7th or 8th gen Accord is actually pleasureable, while the CB7 is merely tolerable. I would personally like something more the size of a TSX, but the majority of Americans have spoken about what they want. Also, like I said it is likely there will be a decrease. Apparently, the next gen Malibu is going to shrink significantly, and personally, I think one of the reasons the Accord always sat on top, even though it was among the tighter offerings was because it leaned a little more toward dynamics, but not too far. Lighter weight and smaller size will make that occur more naturally together.

As for the Civic styling, I like it better now than I did, and it is actually very simple and clean with few character lines or design features that make it seem like it is trying to hard. The cab foward styling is really the odd element to it, and that actually works really well to make it look taught and tailored.

I see what you are saying about the Civic. I actually mostly agree on that. I hope it doesn't get smaller, because it is a good size now, and if the Accord shrinks, would put it in a better position. I just meant that I would rather pay a little more for unquestionably leading quality than have it be cheaper and flimsier.

[gloryaccordy]

They do have a huge gap between the Accord and Civic. The Accord is about 10" longer. However, I suspect you MIGHT see a smaller USDM Accord the next generation. The current TSX is a little too small, and I even wouldn't mind if it was a little smaller than the 7th gen in a few dimensions (keep the width though). Something on the order of the 6th gen with the build quality and taste in styling of the 7th and 8th gen cars would be nice. Or something like a slighly upsized TSX.

In regard to the Civic, I can't agree with the desire for "cheaper." They can only get so cheap before quality has to suffer, and actually I would like to see them up the price by 1,000 or so and go back to installing interiors that are unquestionably class leading, and feel like they will last forever. They have improved materials quality since ~2000, but they still are not where they used to be IMO. You could get into a CB7 SE and have a quality interior that was AT LEAST on par with luxury cars costing twice as much. I am consistently impressed how the CB7's interior was actually slightly better in many respects than the E36 3 series and Benzes of the era. Less hard plastic, softer touch materials, better switch gear, better fit and finish etc. Part of what defined the "core" Honda buyer was that you KNEW you were getting a piece with quality that usually occured at twice the price point. I would like to see them gain some of that unquestionable lead back.

As far as the "distinctiveness," I somewhat agree, but you can't exactly blame them for pandering to the masses, and younger people want distinctive. I tend to be in the middle as long as function isn't compromised, and so far it hasn't been. I actually sort of like the dash design on the new CR-Z, as it is functional and stylish.

Ah I dig what you are saying. I guess by cheaper I meant a little smaller. But it will be tough because I wouldn't want Honda to get caught in a "Ford Contour" trap where people are turned off by a Civic that costs as much but is smaller. The Civic should be about the size of a Focus or so IMO.

And the TSX is a great size. It's pretty much identical in footprint to the CB7, which I've comfortably driven 5 normal size adults in on a road trip. Honestly, I think the TSX should have been the 7th gen Accord, with the USDM Accord moving upscale to compete with the likes of the Avalon/Maxima. I definitely sense a downsizing of the "mid size" car coming in the name of being green, and I am hoping Honda has the foresight to capitalize on that.

And the CB is a clear example of how restraint and clean details can age well. As much as I like the 8th gen Civic I do not see it aging very well.

[owequitit]

This is going to be my last post in reply to you. Simply because I think you're wrapped up in your own little world thinking that everything spewing out of your brain is correct and should be unquestioned. Contortioning statements to make them read how you want them to read. (Yes the essence of the Evolution 11 is IN the Ralliart, not the Ralliart essence is in the Evolution) A bit harder to argue when the argument in question is more then "I don't like Vtec just because I don't" eh?

I haven't taken anything personal from what you've said but if you have taken things personal from what I've said, we'll that's on you my friend. I think this whole conversation got out of hand because of your inability to stay on topic, if you recall I was not the first one to mention F1 racing... and I certainly didn't mention CART racing, not only this but other things as well.

I've said my piece, my opinion, and I have presented valid reasons why. Going on further would just be a waste of time. If you would like to re-read what I have written and open your mind a bit feel free. but for this thread I bid you adieu.

Well that pretty much ends it then. As usual, you are relegated to nothing higher than personal attack, because ultimately you can't substantiate your opinion and we both know it. You were given MULTIPLE chances to succeed and you failed to do so. If you need to justify that by putting the onus on me, feel free to do so, but we both know that I can't fail for you.

I have an opinion, and you are just pissed off because I stand by that opinion and can actually back it up with factual data.

I am actually a ton more open minded than you think (you are actually the close minded one in the discussion, not me), but I will damned if I am going to just believe YOU because you have some touchy feel bullshit assessment on something. If you want to argue my position, I welcome it, but you better bring something at least as substantial as I have, and you have repeatedly failed to do so. Not my problem. I am certainly not going to stand by you attacking MY opinion with your snide litte off the hip comments like "Honda can't build a car durable enough" or "I am just not impressed but can't elaborate as to why." That shit doesn't work once you are out of high school. Sorry.

[owequitit]

I hope Honda moves to lighter cars as well... especially in the case of the Accord. The Civic should get a little smaller + cheaper, and they can slot something like the JDM Domani or CF7 Accord between the Civic and USDM Accord.

Honda hasn't lost focus of what defines and separates them from their competitors- engineering excellence, long term quality & a higher than normal fun to drive factor. But I think with the likes of cars like the new TL and the Civic, while they have kept the fundamentals excellent they have fudged up the details in an effort to be distinct. Personally, I'm hoping for Honda to up the fun factor while turning down the "distinctiveness". We need more designs like the first gen TSX, and less like the latest TL. If they go in that direction they'll be able to get back their core base. I would love an 8th gen Civic for my girlfriend or something if they just looked a little more conventional (and we had a need for a car). Hopefully they will go in that direction on the next go round.

Their line up is pretty strong right now though. They just need more even spacing.

They do have a huge gap between the Accord and Civic. The Accord is about 10" longer. However, I suspect you MIGHT see a smaller USDM Accord the next generation. The current TSX is a little too small, and I even wouldn't mind if it was a little smaller than the 7th gen in a few dimensions (keep the width though). Something on the order of the 6th gen with the build quality and taste in styling of the 7th and 8th gen cars would be nice. Or something like a slighly upsized TSX.

In regard to the Civic, I can't agree with the desire for "cheaper." They can only get so cheap before quality has to suffer, and actually I would like to see them up the price by 1,000 or so and go back to installing interiors that are unquestionably class leading, and feel like they will last forever. They have improved materials quality since ~2000, but they still are not where they used to be IMO. You could get into a CB7 SE and have a quality interior that was AT LEAST on par with luxury cars costing twice as much. I am consistently impressed how the CB7's interior was actually slightly better in many respects than the E36 3 series and Benzes of the era. Less hard plastic, softer touch materials, better switch gear, better fit and finish etc. Part of what defined the "core" Honda buyer was that you KNEW you were getting a piece with quality that usually occured at twice the price point. I would like to see them gain some of that unquestionable lead back.

As far as the "distinctiveness," I somewhat agree, but you can't exactly blame them for pandering to the masses, and younger people want distinctive. I tend to be in the middle as long as function isn't compromised, and so far it hasn't been. I actually sort of like the dash design on the new CR-Z, as it is functional and stylish.

[Makaveli2k]

-

This is going to be my last post in reply to you. Simply because I think you're wrapped up in your own little world thinking that everything spewing out of your brain is correct and should be unquestioned. Contortioning statements to make them read how you want them to read. (Yes the essence of the Evolution 11 is IN the Ralliart, not the Ralliart essence is in the Evolution) A bit harder to argue when the argument in question is more then "I don't like Vtec just because I don't" eh?

I haven't taken anything personal from what you've said but if you have taken things personal from what I've said, we'll that's on you my friend. I think this whole conversation got out of hand because of your inability to stay on topic, if you recall I was not the first one to mention F1 racing... and I certainly didn't mention CART racing, not only this but other things as well.

I've said my piece, my opinion, and I have presented valid reasons why. Going on further would just be a waste of time. If you would like to re-read what I have written and open your mind a bit feel free. but for this thread I bid you adieu.

[gloryaccordy]

I thought about an E36 M3, but like most cars of that vintage, I couldn't find one in good enough shape. Plus, I didn't want a DD that was more of a project than my project.

That is one of the reasons like the Si. It is about the same size, which is big enough to be useful when you need it to, but not a hulking monstrosity on the road. It does dual duty very well, and overall, the refinement and responsiveness are actually very similar to the M3 stock, and it isn't all that much slower, but gets better MPG.

I have been pondering my list of wants in the 9th gen, and there are many things I hope they don't change, but I can't decide on the dash layout. I LOVE the way it works, and it looks cool, and gets a lot of compliments, but I can't help but wonder if a more traditional and elegant layout wouldn't help bolster the Civic's image next to the likes of VW etc.

Other than that, I have few complaints, and I do hope that they lighten the car by 100lbs or so and add another 20-30HP. I think I figured that out and it would improve the power to weight about 13-18% which would probably put it squarely in the mid to low 14's, which is about where it should be.

Stylistically, I always liked the 4 doors better, although I don't have the distaste for coupes that you do, and I hope they evolve this language, as I liked it from day 1 and it has aged extremely well.

I hope Honda moves to lighter cars as well... especially in the case of the Accord. The Civic should get a little smaller + cheaper, and they can slot something like the JDM Domani or CF7 Accord between the Civic and USDM Accord.

Honda hasn't lost focus of what defines and separates them from their competitors- engineering excellence, long term quality & a higher than normal fun to drive factor. But I think with the likes of cars like the new TL and the Civic, while they have kept the fundamentals excellent they have fudged up the details in an effort to be distinct. Personally, I'm hoping for Honda to up the fun factor while turning down the "distinctiveness". We need more designs like the first gen TSX, and less like the latest TL. If they go in that direction they'll be able to get back their core base. I would love an 8th gen Civic for my girlfriend or something if they just looked a little more conventional (and we had a need for a car). Hopefully they will go in that direction on the next go round.

Their line up is pretty strong right now though. They just need more even spacing.

[owequitit]

Just appreciating. For the $$$ and what I prioritize (performance, luxury, looks) + the reliability risk I'm willing to take, the 8th gen CSi is a bad value. I'd rather try my hand at an old M3 for ~10k, or a 996 Carrera for ~20k. But the Civic looks good in a very strange way, and with a mild tune can outrun an S2000 on a track. You HAVE to respect that.

I thought about an E36 M3, but like most cars of that vintage, I couldn't find one in good enough shape. Plus, I didn't want a DD that was more of a project than my project.

That is one of the reasons like the Si. It is about the same size, which is big enough to be useful when you need it to, but not a hulking monstrosity on the road. It does dual duty very well, and overall, the refinement and responsiveness are actually very similar to the M3 stock, and it isn't all that much slower, but gets better MPG.

I have been pondering my list of wants in the 9th gen, and there are many things I hope they don't change, but I can't decide on the dash layout. I LOVE the way it works, and it looks cool, and gets a lot of compliments, but I can't help but wonder if a more traditional and elegant layout wouldn't help bolster the Civic's image next to the likes of VW etc.

Other than that, I have few complaints, and I do hope that they lighten the car by 100lbs or so and add another 20-30HP. I think I figured that out and it would improve the power to weight about 13-18% which would probably put it squarely in the mid to low 14's, which is about where it should be.

Stylistically, I always liked the 4 doors better, although I don't have the distaste for coupes that you do, and I hope they evolve this language, as I liked it from day 1 and it has aged extremely well.

[gloryaccordy]

Glory, are you actually thinking about buying one of these, or are you just appreciating the car?

Just appreciating. For the $$$ and what I prioritize (performance, luxury, looks) + the reliability risk I'm willing to take, the 8th gen CSi is a bad value. I'd rather try my hand at an old M3 for ~10k, or a 996 Carrera for ~20k. But the Civic looks good in a very strange way, and with a mild tune can outrun an S2000 on a track. You HAVE to respect that.

[owequitit]

Glory, are you actually thinking about buying one of these, or are you just appreciating the car?

[owequitit]

Because a company is first to implement a new system, doesn't exactly mean they are the best at it. Automotive history pretty much dictates that.

Well, considering that ALL of the other providers of AWD systems, with the exception of Subaru are scrambling to copy it and its functions and capabilites sure speaks a lot louder than your dismissal of reality.

Yes. I'm "Fucking" serious

I don't think you're fully grasping what I had to say.

Let me put it this way.
Lancer Ralliart = Turbocharrged inline 4/ Mitsubishi Lancer Evo XI - Turbocharged inline 4

Civic Si = High reving inline 4 FWD. You're so called AWD madman, would include an Acura branded turbo 4 cylinder motor.

Your right, I don't grasp what you are saying because it is an invalid arguement. You said, and I will be more than happy to quote you, if you like, that if Honda made a turbocharged AWD Civic Si ti would be "unfair." That is bullshit and you know it. The rest of this crap is just a smokescreen for you to hide behind.

Mitsubishi already had the essence of the Evolution 11 in the Ralliart. Making it so that if people were not satisfied they could get a comparable car with better performance from the SAME powerplant. And like I said before it's not so much of a drastic change in the Mitsubishi as it is in the Civic. You're basically rebuilding a whole different car. At the end of the day it's still a civic cheap, reliable, easy on gas transportation in which the company made its name off of.

I think you need to go back and do your homework. The Ralliart is BENEATH the EVO, not above it. It is slower, softer and has less power. Hardly an "EVO 11."

Here, see for yourself:

http://www.mitsubishicars.com/MMNA/jsp/index.do

If they were to build such a thing, I think it would be a wiser choice to name it something other than a civic.

You can't Bench race a car that's never been built, you can speculate all you want but in the end this is what it boils down too.

More rationalization. Why would Honda need to name it something else? Is it not a "Lancer EVO" or an "Impreza WRX?" EVO and STI/WRX owner apparently like to pretend that their cars are based on lowly econoboxes (which to me is part of the fun), so I guess a "Civic" that was competitive would drag them down? There is no reason it needs to be anything other than "Civic."

I haven't benchraced anything. I have taken a known quantity (TL SH-AWD 6MT), and made some educated assumptions about what the system would be capable of doing with similar power in a vehicle that was smaller, lighter, and less nose heavy based on known FACTS. That isn't bench racing. Speculation, yes, but you make it sound as though there is no such thing as valid, warranted, or substantiated speculation. That is also completely false logic on your part.

Yes of course being a contender in the F1 series is nothing to be downplayed, but Honda has never really been a top player in F1. They've always been mediocre at best. But that's for another discussion.

Are you sure about that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_F1 (I can find the substantiated links if you wish...I didn't want to spend the time though)

Not only did they win as a total constructor very early in their career (which was, and still is completely unprecedented), but they absolutely and unquestionably dominated as an engine supplier. Also, you would be well informed to know that BrawnGP is currently running Honda's chassis and pretty much mopped up this last year. The Honda engine from 2 seasons ago was down on power, but that is because they started with an old design when they bought BAR Honda, and FIA froze engine development, leaving them with no way to close the gap. As soon as the engine issue was rectified, the chassis (funded and developed by Honda) pretty much eliminated all doubt as to its competitiveness.

Of course, then there is CART and IRL both of which Honda dominated, and dominated IRL so much that everyone else withdrew their competition. Then of course, we are left with the motorcycle racing both on and off road, and the fact that they actually have competed and WON in rallying.

http://world.honda.com/timeline/motorsports/

http://jalopnik.com/5055468/honda-ci...s-rally-racing

http://automobiles.honda.com/ridgeline/baja-racing.aspx

Isn't the Baja 1000 considered a challenging and stressful race on machinery?

Wait, is there a win in the Paris Dakar Rally, one of the most brutal and punishing races on Earth? I guess that makes your next statement moot:

Building cars capable enough of enduring the challenges of the WRC circuit and WINNING, putting the technology behind that into AWD systems for road going cars should not be taken lightly either.

Apparently Honda didn't get the memo that they didn't know how to compete or win in rallying and off road racing.

It is unwise to question the racing pedigree of Honda, especially considering that in pretty much every contest they have entered, they have not only won/dominated, but they have done enough racing to put them in the echelon with the likes of Porsche, Ferrari, and the other major racing players.

Like I said specualtion can happen all you want. Unfortuantely we're not discussion F1 technology, we're discussing AWD systems. Then again... the Europeans tend to dominate the F1 series too. =p

Your ship is really taking on water here, so you may want to just let it go. The discussion STARTED about AWD systems and the technological merits of SH-AWD. Well actually, it started with me saying that I didn't think Honda would do it. Then you made some snide comment about Honda not knowing how to build a durable enough car to compete as Subaru and Mitsu have (nevermind real world durability results where Honda is almost ALWAYS higher than Mitsu and Subaru). The problem with that statement was your obviously exposed blatant ignorance to Honda's motorsports history as they have ALREADY competed and won in rally (as well as MANY production based non-sanctioned events). The mention of F1 was in relation to the fact that is THE hardest form of motorsports to compete in, and yet they did it and DOMINATED for many years. They have dominated motorcycle racing, they have dominated open wheel racing, closed wheel racing and every other form of racing they have competed in. They have designed and produced a technologically cutting edge airplane (Mitsubishi has also designed several successful airplanes),and yet, I am to believe your claim that Honda "can't do it" when they already have, and have also demonstrated racing ability BEYOND WRC, which was the whole point of mentioning F1.

So because Honda was the first to design this system, you think they are automatically on top in the battle? I don't think it's about who's first. In the end what will determine a successful company is who can market out their system as being superior, this will equate to units being sold and revenue being generated. That is reality, not a "what it"

At the time the system debuted? Yes. Unquestionably. Their system allowed an AWD system to perform tasks that previous systems could not. Simple as that. It had a wider capability, a more advanced design, and a larger envelope of capability and performance. That is all unquestionable as of 2005 when SH-AWD was released. Period. Any claim to the contrary on your part is in direct denial of reality.

Because of the release of this technology, Mitsubishi sped development of AYC or "Active Yaw Control" which has a right to left distributable rear diff much like SH-AWD. Then Audi released their "sport differential" with the debut of the new S4 that essentially does the same thing. BMW is about to release their new active rear differential which accomplishes pretty much the same thing. I believe they are calling it "active drive" or something along those lines. Now, you are honestly expecting me to believe that when Honda releases a technology that completely leapfrogs all of the other AWD players in the market, and everybody else summarily scrambles to match the technology that they aren't leading anything? PUHLEASE.

Those companies wouldn't be spending many millions of dollars to match a technology that didn't matter. Period.

Any normal person could see the analogy that was said. Or maybe you're of too high class to even acknowledge that the Simpsons are based on "people"

I saw the analogy. It was a poor analogy. Simple as that. Honda isn't "people" that don't know how to build a car deciding they are going to.

Now, back up your position with something that actually stands, or get back to the topic at hand, which is 8th gen Civic Sedan love.

[owequitit]

You can Engineer all the "Wickeded" stuff and put out all the latest technology. Do you think an average consumer will go to the great lengths of coming on to a forum signing up and reading gobs of information on a car that they are potentially going to purchase? In the end it's the marketing that will bring in the average consumer.

Does not change the fact that the technological merits are the technological merits. Period. Cry about it all you want. Marketing and engineering are not different. I am not the average consumer, and personally could care less what the average consumer does or thinks, because the average consumer is an idiot.

Also, I have enough mechanical know how in order to put my head around this AWD system. BUT like I said, I'm still not impressed. If I was in a position to purchase an AWD vehicle believe me, my decision won't be based on your information, which I can so conveniently find on Wikipedia.

But because I chose to disagree on taking your statement you chose to go off on some kind of tirade?

Good for you. You apparently don't have the mechanical apptitude you believe you do, or you would be more impressed. It was the first of its kind, and it does things that none of the systems you hold on an equal level can do, unless they are equipped with the equivalent version of SH-AWD. That also quite elaborately illustrates that you have no personal experience with the system. So here, let's change tack here for a second. Why don't you explain to ME why you aren't impressed. What is it about this technology that doesn't live up to its promise and what is it about the other technologies that make them just as capable if not moreso than SH-AWD. I look foward to your response (I do sincerely hope you don't just brush passed it) because it will allow us to evaluate YOUR technical expertise on the matter, as well as to provide a counter viewpoint. Balance is fair after all, and I am assuming that you can back up your assertions with something substantive.

Not one bit of my information came from Wikipedia, as again, any actual substantiated arguement knows that wikipedia is not a credible source. No sir, my information came straight from the horse's mouth, which is much more than what you were able to provide in counter to my point.

Of course, you are the one on the tirade now, trying to make personal insults, but whatever. Go ahead, it doesn't bother me in the least. I can deal with the attacks, and consider it good ribbing. But I have yet to see something substantial...

I chose a video that was a NON PROMOTIONAL. If the average consumer can't get the car to move how he wants it, how do you think the rest of the world will fair? Soccer moms, kids borrowing their moms cars? Not everybody in the world can drive like Tiff Nadel. I also never said that other AWD systems couldn't get stuck, but I said, when looking up video's about the system its hard to get a grip of what it can actually do just by watching that video. Which was shot by a Acura Forum member none the less.

The first video was technical, not promotional. The 2nd video was somewhat promotional, but still illustrated the functioning of the system. The world.honda videos were BOTH technical and non-promotional in nature.

The video you posted was some random video of a stupid driver trying to drive up on a sidewalk while feathering the throttle on ice and snow. You then take that video of said stupid driver and try to use it as a justification of how poor SH-AWD is, when the fact is that A) the driver was the problem, and B) any other AWD system in the same circumstance would have had EXACTLY the same result. Not only was it bogus, but you then try to justify it as "non-promotional."

[owequitit]

with the flashpro do you guys also get the tuned over the net throught he computer and updates to it and such. And is there an unlocking fee if you decide to reurn the car back to the stock map.

Software updates etc are included, and no it does not cost to revert back to stock. Once you buy it, it is yours to do as you wish.

[CB7H22Los]

Did anyone else see the wiener in the first picture? lol

i lol'd HARD when i scrolled back up!

[Law Grandeur]

I like the Acura csx/jdm civic better, don't think the usa gets it though

bread and butter right there!

[Makaveli2k]

First, lets hope your arguements never have to actually stand on scientific merit.

Second, you are confusing marketing with engineering. SH-AWD is a completely effective technology. 90% of people can't tell you what an LSD does either, but does that make it less effective as a technology? How about VTEC? Just because most people don't understand it, doesn't mean it is less effective as a technology does it? There is a difference between YOU not knowing what it does, and it actually being hype.

You can Engineer all the "Wickeded" stuff and put out all the latest technology. Do you think an average consumer will go to the great lengths of coming on to a forum signing up and reading gobs of information on a car that they are potentially going to purchase? In the end it's the marketing that will bring in the average consumer.

Also, I have enough mechanical know how in order to put my head around this AWD system. BUT like I said, I'm still not impressed. If I was in a position to purchase an AWD vehicle believe me, my decision won't be based on your information, which I can so conveniently find on Wikipedia.

But because I chose to disagree on taking your statement you chose to go off on some kind of tirade?

1) Honda doesn't make valiant claims about any of their technology. That is just how they roll. Why is everyone else scrambling to introduce a similar system if SH-AWD is all hype? BMW, Audi, Mitsu have all done it now. They are all derivative systems of SH-AWD.

2) Is posting a video of a stupid driver supposed to illustrate something? You are either not searching long enough, or are trying to hand pick videos to suit your arguement. Like I said, hope it doesn't have to stand scientifically.

Try these on for size, as they are both more educational and more technically correct:





http://world.honda.com/HDTV/news/2004-4040401a/

http://world.honda.com/automobile-technology/SH-AWD/

Interestingly, they don't mention the fact that SH-AWD actually overdrives the rear wheel with receiving the traction, although it is implied in the large torque vector in the SH-AWD video diagram. The overdrive function is somewhat explained at 8:40 in the first Honda video. For the record, the RL diff overdrives the rear wheels about 10%, which directly creates a pronounced yaw.

You, on the other hand, provide a video that shows some retard trying to pull of out of an icy parking spot by keeping his wheels turned toward the curb. Are you somehow under the dillusion that a Subaru or Mitsu is incapabable of getting stuck? Are you also under the dillusion that they would have just jumped over that curb? The point? Poor choice of video.

I chose a video that was a NON PROMOTIONAL. If the average consumer can't get the car to move how he wants it, how do you think the rest of the world will fair? Soccer moms, kids borrowing their moms cars? Not everybody in the world can drive like Tiff Nadel. I also never said that other AWD systems couldn't get stuck, but I said, when looking up video's about the system its hard to get a grip of what it can actually do just by watching that video. Which was shot by a Acura Forum member none the less.

Because a company is first to implement a new system, doesn't exactly mean they are the best at it. Automotive history pretty much dictates that.

The general consensus from people who have used it on the snow is that it is awesome.

Try this on for size:







You will see with the TL SH-AWD 6MT what the system is actually capable of once it gets out more because it is really the first chassis/tranny setup that really utilizes SH-AWD to its capabilities.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t_drive_review

http://www.insideline.com/acura/tl/2...rst-drive.html

Now, imagine a car that is some 10-15" shorter, nearly 1000lbs lighter and has a similar power output. How do you suppose it would do?

Also, I want to make sure I understand this correctly. The Lancer EVO/Ralliart comes with a boosted engine from the factory in addition to AWD, but somehow if Honda did the same thing it would be unfair? Are you fucking SERIOUS?!?!?! Sounds like a rationalization of a preference to me. How the fuck would it be unfair?



This pretty much got washed out the window with the last part I quoted. You think? Really? I guess Honda should just not compete if they choose. Afterall, if they built an equivalent car and summarily waxed your shit all over the floor, it would be "unfair." Give me a fucking break.

It is OK though, because you can still sleep easily at night knowing that building this car isn't Honda's style, so you can rest assured that your bias is safe. For now...

Yes. I'm "Fucking" serious

I don't think you're fully grasping what I had to say.

Let me put it this way.
Lancer Ralliart = Turbocharrged inline 4/ Mitsubishi Lancer Evo XI - Turbocharged inline 4

Civic Si = High reving inline 4 FWD. You're so called AWD madman, would include an Acura branded turbo 4 cylinder motor.

Mitsubishi already had the essence of the Evolution 11 in the Ralliart. Making it so that if people were not satisfied they could get a comparable car with better performance from the SAME powerplant. And like I said before it's not so much of a drastic change in the Mitsubishi as it is in the Civic. You're basically rebuilding a whole different car. At the end of the day it's still a civic cheap, reliable, easy on gas transportation in which the company made its name off of.

If they were to build such a thing, I think it would be a wiser choice to name it something other than a civic.

You can't Bench race a car that's never been built, you can speculate all you want but in the end this is what it boils down too.

No, we are talking about the relative ability of a company to build a competitive car. Honda's forms of motorsports achievements are higher than Mitu's and Subies. I am not knocking WRC, but the truth is if you think it is hard to win in rally racing try bagging an F1 championship sometime. The levels of technical requirement are nowhere near the same, and haven't been close since Group A was banned. You are on the one hand, trying to build up Mitsubishi's and Subaru's technical prowess, while trying to downplay Honda's. It isn't going to work.

Yes of course being a contender in the F1 series is nothing to be downplayed, but Honda has never really been a top player in F1. They've always been mediocre at best. But that's for another discussion.

Building cars capable enough of enduring the challenges of the WRC circuit and WINNING, putting the technology behind that into AWD systems for road going cars should not be taken lightly either.

Like I said specualtion can happen all you want. Unfortuantely we're not discussion F1 technology, we're discussing AWD systems. Then again... the Europeans tend to dominate the F1 series too. =p

ONLY reason you haven't been convinced of SH-AWD's abilities yet is because prior to the TL, and especially the TL 6MT, they have only put SH-AWD in 1 squishy suspension luxo barge, and 2 huge SUV's. The TL is itself no lightweight piece of equipment, but it finally has a suspension setup worthy of the AWD system, and with the 6MT the ability to finely control the power output and engine speed to really exploit the advantages. And it is still a 60% front biased nose heavy pig, to boot.

If Honda put that system in even one small, lightweight, high power density car, you would not be saying the same things. The difference between you and me is that I can see through the marketing problems, and the cars it has been equipped in and see the merit of the technology. Verification of that merit is the fact that everyone else is scrambling to copy it.

So because Honda was the first to design this system, you think they are automatically on top in the battle? I don't think it's about who's first. In the end what will determine a successful company is who can market out their system as being superior, this will equate to units being sold and revenue being generated. That is reality, not a "what it"

Yes, because not only is The Simpons completely based on reality, but I am sure Honda is right there on the level with Homer's brother...

Any normal person could see the analogy that was said. Or maybe you're of too high class to even acknowledge that the Simpsons are based on "people"