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Not the typical idle issue?

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  • 802cb7
    replied
    yeah, I used a bottle of 'gunk fuel additive' . As for what I was saying about the timing, and why I feel it was off a tooth was: with the cam pulley at TDC up was up and the two notches lined up with the head, the flywheel TDC white + sign was just above the aligning sight . if I were to turn the cam forward one tooth forward then the flywheel mark would line up, which to me shows that the timing is off a tooth. I'm hoping to get the car into Honda as soon as I can, and then after that its no more trying this crap on my own lol. I wont sit here and pretend that Its not my fault. I thought I could fix it ,and it turns out I was wrong. I'm having the A new timing belt, water pump, tensioner, cam seal, the seal behind the balance shaft, new balancer belts, drive belts, etc done. Then I'm going to focus on the things I understand, and know how to do. This whole thing has been a nightmare, but I've learned so much, and feel that I have a better understanding of all of this than I did 3 months ago. You have done an amazing job explaining things, and putting up with me. I truly am thankful I wasnt blasted here for not understanding yet like you do. Maybe at 288,000 I can do my own belt (if i havent had an H22 put in by then) and know exactly what I'm doing. So a big shout out to Johnl for all your help mate!!! If youre ever in VT u.s.a let me know and I'll show you around. I really cant wait to have this all fixed and proper timed. I'll get good gas milage and feel what I'm hoping is much more power.

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  • johnl
    replied
    Originally posted by 802cb7 View Post
    Oh well, I suppose after this is done the engine should last me another 100k easy.
    My F22a9 has almost 380,000km on it, still uses almost zero oil, has good compression and runs really well (famous last words...?). I've had it since 206,000km, and make sure it gets a regular run to max rpm (just to keep it properly exercised...).

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  • johnl
    replied
    Originally posted by 802cb7 View Post
    All I know is that with crank and cam lined up the flywheel mark was of by one tooth. if I were to turn the crank one tooth forward the flywheel would be lined up which was making me think it was off a tooth.
    Confusing. There are no 'timing' teeth on the flywheel, so "with crank and cam lined up the flywheel mark was of by one tooth" can't be a correct statement. There are teeth on the flywheel, but these have nothing to do with the timing, they are just a gear drive for the starter motor.

    There are about 120 of these starter motor teeth, which = about 3&#176; per tooth. So, if you were using these starter teeth as a reference (with the cam pulley correctly aligned at the head), and the pointer was pointing at a position on the flywheel that was one starter tooth off the TDC mark, then the crank would have been 'out' by about 3&#176;. Since the cam pulley rotates at 0.5X crank speed, this would equate to the cam pulley being off by about 1.5&#176; when the crank is exactly at TDC.

    This is within the margin for error when setting the cam pulley relative to the crank position, considering that the angle between two teeth on the cam pulley = 9&#176;.

    All your cam timing checks should be done with the pointer pointing at the TDC mark on the flywheel, i.e. with the crank at TDC. This is the only accurate reference you have for TDC (i.e. the pointer pointing at the flywheel marks), don't try and rely on the arrow pointing 'up' on the front pulley.

    With the crank at TDC the cam pulley marks must align with the head (or very near to aligning). If not then the cam pulley / camshaft must be rotated while leaving the crank at TDC. Rotating the crank so that the cam sprockets line up and then trying to see how many 'teeth off' the crank pulley (or flywheel) might be is not the way to do it.

    Note that there are two white marks on the flywheel, one is the '+' shaped mark that is TDC, the other is an 'l' shaped mark at about 55&#176; BTDC. I don't know why this second mark exists or it's purpose.

    Originally posted by 802cb7 View Post
    I also took out my brand new plugs and noticed they were burnt, like a brick red color.
    I doubt the plugs are 'burnt'. A reddish deposit will most likely be a chemical deposit from something in the fuel, maybe due to the brand (somewhat unlikely, I would think) or from some sort of bottled additive (e.g. an octane booster or maybe a fuel system cleaning agent). Have you used any 'products' in the fuel?
    Last edited by johnl; 11-03-2014, 10:22 PM.

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  • 802cb7
    replied
    Originally posted by wildBill83 View Post
    I haven't done the timing with the motor in the car, it is a breeze with the motor out. Plus you can freshen up the rest of the motor. All you would need is an engine stand and you can rent the hoist. You can use all typical hand tools other than the harmonic balanacer holder. I have done the timing of a DOHC in an integra a few times and other than a sore back and a few cuts/scrapes it really isn't that difficult.

    I wonder what Honda charges for this job these days. I imagine it is more than the value of my CB7s.
    I was just quoted $678 +/- that includes everything. including drive belts, waterpump etc. I wish there was a way for my to just slip the belt back on. But its also freezing here in VT and I'm working in a cramped garage. I just want piece of mind that everything is together and done right. I'm pretty sure the seal behind the balancer shaft is leaking too. I just dont have what it takes to do a job like this. I wish I had another $600 and I would just put an H in it at this point. Oh well, I suppose after this is done the engine should last me another 100k easy.

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  • wildBill83
    replied
    I haven't done the timing with the motor in the car, it is a breeze with the motor out. Plus you can freshen up the rest of the motor. All you would need is an engine stand and you can rent the hoist. You can use all typical hand tools other than the harmonic balanacer holder. I have done the timing of a DOHC in an integra a few times and other than a sore back and a few cuts/scrapes it really isn't that difficult.

    I wonder what Honda charges for this job these days. I imagine it is more than the value of my CB7s.

    Leave a comment:


  • 802cb7
    replied
    All I know is that with crank and cam lined up the flywheel mark was of by one tooth. if I were to turn the crank one tooth forward the flywheel would be lined up which was making me think it was off a tooth. I also took out my brand new plugs and noticed they were burnt, like a brick red color. I'm just going to have the car towed to HONDA which is literally like a mile from me. Explain to their most seasoned mechanic what is going on and just have an entire T-belt job done. waterpump,belts, gaskets, the whole 9 yards!! Then, I'm going to stick to what I know. I feel like such a tard its not funny! I watched a bunch of videos on doing the timing belt and was like "no way am I doing that".

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  • johnl
    replied
    Originally posted by 802cb7 View Post
    ok, so the timing was off by a tooth. Cam pulley lined up and the white + sign off just a hair.
    Define "a hair"? It would be unusual for the cam timing to be 'correct' and for the two cam pulley marks to be absolutely exactly aligned with the head when the crank is exactly at TDC. One tooth off though and the misalignment should be quite obvious.

    Lets think about this; the cam pulley / sprocket has 40 teeth (I counted them on a photo), and rotates at half crank speed, so the crank pulley must have 20 teeth.

    360&#176; / 40 = 9&#176; per tooth at the cam pulley, so 360&#176; / 20 must = 18&#176; per tooth at the crank pulley.

    If the crank is at TDC then one tooth off at the cam pulley equals 9&#176; misalignment at the cam pulley, which is quite a lot. Since the crank rotates 2X camshaft rotation, if the cam pulley is correctly aligned with the head casting, then one tooth off at the crank pulley equates to 18&#176; at the crank pulley and at the flywheel.

    If the crank is set to TDC and the cam pulley is 9&#176; off (one tooth), then because the cam pulley rotates at 0.5 X crank rotation, to get the cam pulley to align with the head will require the crank to be rotated 18&#176; either BTDC or ATDC (depending on which way off the belt is).

    To put this another way; with the two cam marks aligned with the head, one tooth off at the crank pulley will be seen as the timing pointer pointing at a position on the flywheel that is further away from the white TDC mark than the red 15&#176; mark is...

    Can you see why I'm concerned about the definition of "a hair"? According to what you've described I suspect the cam timing may not have been incorrect, at least not before you pulled the belt off...

    Which if true leaves me at something of a loss as to why the distributor body is needing to be 'fully' rotated to achieve base ignition timing of 15&#176; BTDC...

    Originally posted by 802cb7 View Post
    However, my dumbass Thinks "oh, I'll just slide the belt off, line up the plus sign, then adjust the cam pulley and slide the belt back on. nope!!! now he belt is off, and I cant get it back on.
    Depending on just how tight the belt is, it may or may not be possible to get the belt back on without slackening the belt off (if you can then the belt may possibly be just a bit too loose). Adjusting the belt requires removing the lower plastic belt cover.

    It may be that the belt teeth 'bumps' aren't sitting in the 'grooves' in the crank pulley, but instead are sitting on top of the crank pulley 'bumps'. This would make it completely impossible to 'slip' the belt back onto the cam pulley (unless the belt was extremely loose).

    Originally posted by 802cb7 View Post
    I'm a moron and knew this was a bad idea for me to attempt. I dont trust myself to do a timing belt. So looks like its off to a shop where they can fix it and make fun of me too. Oh well, live and learn. I've been trying to get ahold of a friend who's done a lot of belts on hondas and acuras but no luck. IDIOT!!!!!!!
    Well I'm not laughing at you, but I have increasingly been getting the feeling that you might be in a bit over your head...

    I hope my advice hasn't been making things worse for you. It can be difficult diagnosing problems with less than utterly clear descriptions of what's going on.
    Last edited by johnl; 11-02-2014, 11:56 PM.

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  • 802cb7
    replied
    ok, so the timing was off by a tooth. Cam pulley lined up and the white + sign off just a hair. However, my dumbass Thinks "oh, I'll just slide the belt off, line up the plus sign, then adjust the cam pulley and slide the belt back on. nope!!! now he belt is off, and I cant get it back on. I'm a moron and knew this was a bad idea for me to attempt. I dont trust myself to do a timing belt. So looks like its off to a shop where they can fix it and make fun of me too. Oh well, live and learn. I've been trying to get ahold of a friend who's done a lot of belts on hondas and acuras but no luck. IDIOT!!!!!!!
    Last edited by 802cb7; 11-02-2014, 09:45 PM.

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  • johnl
    replied
    Originally posted by 802cb7 View Post
    Anyway, I was using the light at the cam gear just because it spins so fast The naked eye cant see the marks.
    ?? You shouldn't be trying to "see" anything to do with the cam timing when the engine is running, with or without the timing light. It doesn't matter how fast or slowly the crankshaft or cam sprocket is rotating, you can't see whether the cam timing is correct when the engine is running (unless, possibly, the ignition timing is set at TDC, which it shouldn't be, in which case the timing light would do it, but don't do that...).

    The timing light is for doing the ignition timing only. The ignition timing has nothing to do with the valve timing. Sure, the distributor shaft is driven from the end of the camshaft, so if the cam timing is off then the ignition timing can be also off as a result, but it can then be reset independently of the cam timing.

    Trying to ascertain cam timing with an ignition timing light will only lead you down a path to a garden of dangerous confusion.

    Originally posted by 802cb7 View Post
    But now that you mention that it fires off the impulse of number one that makes sense and is sort of a 'duh' moment for me.
    Well, yes. The timing light has to be connected to the #1 ignition lead or it won't show you anything, it will just flash as some non marked section of the flywheel passes by it's 'flashing range'.

    Originally posted by 802cb7 View Post
    As for cam timing. I've had my cover off for a few weeks now, and when I checked it initially I turned the crank shaft CC until the marks lined . Up was up and the other marks were lined up perfectly with the top of the head. cant quite remember but I think the flywheel mark was the larger white + sign?
    With the two marks on the cam sprocket lined up with the edge of the head casting, the white + mark on the flywheel (TDC mark) must be aligned with the pointer. Double check this.

    Rotate the crank anti-clockwise (never rotate the crank in the opposite direction to that in which it normally rotates when the engine is running, especially when checking cam timing), set the crank to TDC, check that the cam marks line up properly. If not then adjust the rotational position of the cam pulley, then rotate the engine a couple of times until again at TDC and recheck it. Make sure that the pulley tensioner is correctly re-tightened...

    When manually rotating the crank to check cam timing, make it easier on yourself and remove the spark plugs to eliminate cylinder compression. This will also prevent the possibility of compression causing the crank to slightly rotate backwards as you stop turning the crankshaft (which can release tension on the belt and may affect the accuracy of the cam timing check).
    Last edited by johnl; 11-01-2014, 10:21 PM.

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  • 802cb7
    replied
    Originally posted by johnl View Post
    'VT' would be Vermont? Australia is a bit of a hike, but feel free to drop over, bring beer...

    My distributor is closish to being central in the range of adjustment allowed by the slots. The idle screw is set to where it needs to be to achieve a base idle of 900rpm, but I don't know how many turns that may be, though it's not closed. Note that it wouldn't surprise me to find a car on which someone has attempted to adjust idle speed using the throttle plate stop screw, especially if the engine idle were unresponsive to adjustment at the correct idle speed screw (which could be caused by the bypass orifice being clagged with crap).

    I suspect you may have been checking the cam timing incorrectly, as above.

    (Note that I have the idle rpm set high to account for having disabled the IACV, to prevent idle rpm from falling too far when the AC etc. are on. The IACV is disabled to improve gear changing, but that's another discussion)

    Hahahaha, I've always wanted to go to Australia! My favorite Youtube show is filmed there mostly, and it just looks like a beautiful country.

    Anyway, I was using the light at the cam gear just because it spins so fast The naked eye cant see the marks. But now that you mention that it fires off the impulse of number one that makes sense and is sort of a 'duh' moment for me.
    As for cam timing. I've had my cover off for a few weeks now, and when I checked it initially I turned the crank shaft CC until the marks lined . Up was up and the other marks were lined up perfectly with the top of the head. cant quite remember but I think the flywheel mark was the larger white + sign?

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  • johnl
    replied
    Originally posted by 802cb7 View Post
    Is your dizzy centered? Any idea where your idle screw is set? say you have it all the way tight, how many turns to the left would you say you have it? Better yet, do you live anywhere near me? lol. I'm just at my whits end with this thing. And if you wouldnt mind, maybe I've been checking cam timing wrong? Although I'm positive I've been doing it right.
    'VT' would be Vermont? Australia is a bit of a hike, but feel free to drop over, bring beer...

    My distributor is closish to being central in the range of adjustment allowed by the slots. The idle screw is set to where it needs to be to achieve a base idle of 900rpm, but I don't know how many turns that may be, though it's not closed. Note that it wouldn't surprise me to find a car on which someone has attempted to adjust idle speed using the throttle plate stop screw, especially if the engine idle were unresponsive to adjustment at the correct idle speed screw (which could be caused by the bypass orifice being clagged with crap).

    I suspect you may have been checking the cam timing incorrectly, as above.

    (Note that I have the idle rpm set high to account for having disabled the IACV, to prevent idle rpm from falling too far when the AC etc. are on. The IACV is disabled to improve gear changing, but that's another discussion)

    Leave a comment:


  • johnl
    replied
    Originally posted by 802cb7 View Post
    I check the cam timing by shinning the timing light at it to make sure the up is up and the other two marks are lined up.
    What? Timing lights are designed to check ignition timing, not valve timing.

    I can see that it might be possible to check the valve timing with the engine idling and an ignition timing light, but only if the base ignition timing is set at TDC. However, it's not how it should be done. The valve timing should be checked and / or adjusted statically (engine not running), by visually aligning the cam sprocket marks with the head casting when the crank and #1 piston is at TDC.

    The timing light flashes when the #1 spark plug fires, which isn't at TDC, unless the ignition timing is hugely retarded to make it fire at TDC. If the base ignition timing isn't retarded to TDC (if attempting to check valve timing with an ignition timing light) then if the marks on the sprocket line up with the head casting (as seen with the light) then the cam / valve timing will actually be advanced to whatever the ignition timing advance may be.

    If the cam timing was correctly set, and the ignition timing was also correctly set to 15 BTDC, then the timing light should wrongly indicate the cam timing as being 15 'retarded', not 'correct'.

    Start from scratch, and check valve timing statically. Then check the ignition timing with the light. When setting / checking valve timing, don't rely on the arrow pointing 'up', take the cam cover off so you can clearly see the edge of the head casting and make sure the marks on the sprocket are aligning with that. Some small misalignment between the sprocket marks and the edge of the head casting isn't unusual, but one tooth off either way will show a significantly larger misalignment.

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  • 802cb7
    replied
    Originally posted by johnl View Post
    Then in diagnostic mode the ECU must not be advancing the base timing between 700rpm and 900rpm, which means it's not a big deal to make sure the idle speed is at spec before adjusting base timing (at least so long as it's not higher than 900rpm).

    This is not a reason to ignore putting it into diagnostic mode, because in diagnostic mode the ECU will try to change the timing to 15 if the base timing isn't already at 15 (or whatever the ECU programme says the 'normal mode' timing should be at idle, which is probably 15, but conceivably may not be, you could check by looking at the idle speed timing in diagnostic vs non diagnostic modes).

    That the timing marks "disappear" at higher rpm does mean that ECU (even in diagnostic mode) is advancing the timing as the rpm rise over 900 rpm (or at whatever rpm the timing starts to change, which may be at some rpm a bit higher than 900). The 15 mark isn't 'disappearing, but just advancing to a position where it's hidden by the bell housing. If the marks were on the front pulley you'd see where the mark moves to, ignition timing typically advances quite a lot with significant rpm increase.



    I can't see why. The ECU doesn't try to adjust the idle rpm in diagnostic mode, and even if it did it won't try to raise the base idle rpm higher than spec, and, it simply can't lower the base idle speed if it's above spec (because all the IACV can do is add air to whatever quantity is being inducted, it can't deduct air).

    The reason to have base idle speed at spec without the IACV kicking in to 'artificially' correct it is so that the IACV is doing nothing most of the time, and so has it's full range of correctional ability at the service of the ECU.

    Question: You are getting a yellow CEL when you 'hot wire' the diagnostic plug aren't you? If not then the ECU isn't in diagnostic mode.

    Have you re-checked the cam timing? This is still the only reason I can think of for the base timing to be correct but the distributor needing to be set fully retarded to achieve it. You really need to know for sure that the cam timing is correct before even thinking about the idle speed problem. The rotational position of the distributor won't affect performance so long as the actual base timing is correct, but if the cam timing is not correct then this will adversely affect performance because it will affect how well the cylinder is ingesting air, and how well exhaust gasses exit the cylinder.

    Note that an idle speed significantly above spec isn't in itself a big problem. I have my base idle set at 900rpm and it causes no issues (idle rpm is deliberately raised because I have deliberately disabled the IACV for reasons outside the scope of this particular discussion). However, if you can't get the base idle down to spec (or lower) then it is an indication that there may be an air leak, and it's the air leak that is the worry...
    Yes, I make sure I'm getting the CEL when I jump the plug. I check the cam timing by shinning the timing light at it to make sure the up is up and the other two marks are lined up. I honestly feel like we are making some progress, and I really have to thank you for sticking with it as long as you have Johnl . I REALLY appreciate it!

    So I feel like I must mention this too. Out of frustration today and desperation I tried your technique for base idle with the engine not in 'diagnostic mode'. I used the cardboard, and did the procedure for getting your base idle. let the car warm up to temp, placed cardboard over TB, unplugged IACV and found that, FOR ONCE, I actually had to open the idle set screw to get the rpm up, not down, to 700 RPM. Plugged in the IACV and had a perfect 700 RPM. and to my surprise checked timing and found that I actually needed to turn the dizzy more to the left to get the timing marks to line up to 15*. Removed cardboard and went for a quick little drive (less than a mile) car actually felt slower and just not quite right. Came back, reset the ecu only to discover that when I came out to run to the store, it was back at 900 rpm idle, and the timing was off again.

    Is your dizzy centered? Any idea where your idle screw is set? say you have it all the way tight, how many turns to the left would you say you have it? Better yet, do you live anywhere near me? lol. I'm just at my whits end with this thing. And if you wouldnt mind, maybe I've been checking cam timing wrong? Although I'm positive I've been doing it right.

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  • johnl
    replied
    Originally posted by 802cb7 View Post
    removed intake tube. then I jumped the diagnostic plug, I started the car and let it get to operating temp. Idle was around 900 rpm. I then used the cardboard to get idle down to 700 rpm. checked timing, and it was right at 15* with the dizzy still turned almost all the way to the right.

    Shut off the car, removed the jumper. unplugged battery, waited exactly 10 minutes. Re Installed battery , put intake tube back on, started car. Let it get to operating temp, Idle came down to 900 rpm again, and checked timing again, right at 15*. Watched for around 10 minutes. Reved up engine, and checked timing, 15* mark would disappear, but always come back to 15* mark at idle.
    Then in diagnostic mode the ECU must not be advancing the base timing between 700rpm and 900rpm, which means it's not a big deal to make sure the idle speed is at spec before adjusting base timing (at least so long as it's not higher than 900rpm).

    This is not a reason to ignore putting it into diagnostic mode, because in diagnostic mode the ECU will try to change the timing to 15 if the base timing isn't already at 15 (or whatever the ECU programme says the 'normal mode' timing should be at idle, which is probably 15, but conceivably may not be, you could check by looking at the idle speed timing in diagnostic vs non diagnostic modes).

    That the timing marks "disappear" at higher rpm does mean that ECU (even in diagnostic mode) is advancing the timing as the rpm rise over 900 rpm (or at whatever rpm the timing starts to change, which may be at some rpm a bit higher than 900). The 15 mark isn't 'disappearing, but just advancing to a position where it's hidden by the bell housing. If the marks were on the front pulley you'd see where the mark moves to, ignition timing typically advances quite a lot with significant rpm increase.

    Originally posted by 802cb7 View Post
    Question: When in diagnostic mode, as I'm adjusting my idle with cardboard etc to get to 700 RPM, I dont need to unplug IACV do I?
    I can't see why. The ECU doesn't try to adjust the idle rpm in diagnostic mode, and even if it did it won't try to raise the base idle rpm higher than spec, and, it simply can't lower the base idle speed if it's above spec (because all the IACV can do is add air to whatever quantity is being inducted, it can't deduct air).

    The reason to have base idle speed at spec without the IACV kicking in to 'artificially' correct it is so that the IACV is doing nothing most of the time, and so has it's full range of correctional ability at the service of the ECU.

    Question: You are getting a yellow CEL when you 'hot wire' the diagnostic plug aren't you? If not then the ECU isn't in diagnostic mode.

    Have you re-checked the cam timing? This is still the only reason I can think of for the base timing to be correct but the distributor needing to be set fully retarded to achieve it. You really need to know for sure that the cam timing is correct before even thinking about the idle speed problem. The rotational position of the distributor won't affect performance so long as the actual base timing is correct, but if the cam timing is not correct then this will adversely affect performance because it will affect how well the cylinder is ingesting air, and how well exhaust gasses exit the cylinder.

    Note that an idle speed significantly above spec isn't in itself a big problem. I have my base idle set at 900rpm and it causes no issues (idle rpm is deliberately raised because I have deliberately disabled the IACV for reasons outside the scope of this particular discussion). However, if you can't get the base idle down to spec (or lower) then it is an indication that there may be an air leak, and it's the air leak that is the worry...

    Leave a comment:


  • 802cb7
    replied
    ok, Here is what I did.

    removed intake tube. then I jumped the diagnostic plug, I started the car and let it get to operating temp. Idle was around 900 rpm. I then used the cardboard to get idle down to 700 rpm. checked timing, and it was right at 15* with the dizzy still turned almost all the way to the right.

    Shut off the car, removed the jumper. unplugged battery, waited exactly 10 minutes. Re Installed battery , put intake tube back on, started car. Let it get to operating temp, Idle came down to 900 rpm again, and checked timing again, right at 15*. Watched for around 10 minutes. Reved up engine, and checked timing, 15* mark would disappear, but always come back to 15* mark at idle.

    Question: When in diagnostic mode, as I'm adjusting my idle with cardboard etc to get to 700 RPM, I dont need to unplug IACV do I?

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