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Not the typical idle issue?

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    #16
    Originally posted by 802cb7 View Post
    Also, forgot to add this which might help. When I start the car, the rpm will jump to the cold start idle and drop really quick to the point where the whole car will shake then it jumps up again to around 1,500 and will do the cold start process normally. How ever, if i start the car and just go without warming it up it almost dies, shakes so bad and is very hard to drive, I have to rev the shit out of it just to start off.
    It might be a base idle speed problem. I think you should make sure the base idle is correct and cross your fingers that it cures the issue. If not then maybe an induction air leak?
    Regards from Oz,
    John.

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by SEgirl View Post
      It also does idle high, around the 1K mark, but it's done that for a long time.
      That's definitely too high. It could be an air leak, or it might be that the base idle is too high. The air bleed screw O ring may be leaking (or there may be a leak at any number of other points), or the screw may have backed out due to the O ring having lost 'tension'. I'd try setting base idle to spec (plus make sure the screw isn't loose). If that doesn't work then start looking for other leaks.
      Regards from Oz,
      John.

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by johnl View Post
        That's definitely too high. It could be an air leak, or it might be that the base idle is too high. The air bleed screw O ring may be leaking (or there may be a leak at any number of other points), or the screw may have backed out due to the O ring having lost 'tension'. I'd try setting base idle to spec (plus make sure the screw isn't loose). If that doesn't work then start looking for other leaks.
        Mine is just under the 1,000 rpm mark. This even after once again resetting the base idle. Which I'm about to go out and do yet one more time.

        I've checked for air leaks all over, using water/ soap and water, and carb cleaner. I've check my ignition wires too, (NGK) not very old at all. I've adjusted the Throttle cable too, properly. I can go and check again for leaks, where/how do you recommend I do this? I'm all ears, because this is getting really annoying. I'm really leaning to a issue in the distributor, ignition some how. Is there a way to up grade to the MSD external coil? Since I've finally decided to not do a H22 swap and stick with the F series at least for a few years, I want to do what i can to this engine. Anyway, another observation that may help is at times, especially while the engine is warming up the engine acts like its got a mild cam in it. I can feel just the slightest skip in the engine. Coolant temp sensor? I'll also head out now and take a better look for that diag plug
        For the love of god, STOP putting H.I.D's in stock housings!!! Projectors ONLY!!!

        Comment


          #19
          Thanks for the info. If I start it and just let it run for a while, eventually it slows down to a normal idle. If I start it, drive for a while (10 min), park, it's fine. If I start and then stop again right away, it does start revving in park, but not neutral. From everything I've read, I thought it was the ICV.

          I can't find it now, but I read a post recently about a car idling differently when just turning the wheel back and forth when in park. Out of curiosity, I did that today before I drove home, and sure enough, the idle changed when I turned the wheel. It slowed down when I turned left or right, but revved up again when the wheels were straight.

          Originally posted by johnl View Post
          That's definitely too high. It could be an air leak, or it might be that the base idle is too high. The air bleed screw O ring may be leaking (or there may be a leak at any number of other points), or the screw may have backed out due to the O ring having lost 'tension'. I'd try setting base idle to spec (plus make sure the screw isn't loose). If that doesn't work then start looking for other leaks.

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by SEgirl View Post
            Thanks for the info. If I start it and just let it run for a while, eventually it slows down to a normal idle. If I start it, drive for a while (10 min), park, it's fine. If I start and then stop again right away, it does start revving in park, but not neutral. From everything I've read, I thought it was the ICV.

            I can't find it now, but I read a post recently about a car idling differently when just turning the wheel back and forth when in park. Out of curiosity, I did that today before I drove home, and sure enough, the idle changed when I turned the wheel. It slowed down when I turned left or right, but revved up again when the wheels were straight.

            Funny you should mention that. If I start the car when its cold and turn the wheel the idle will jump all over the place.

            So I just went out to the garage and re bled the cooling system, let the car warm up until the fan came on twice, pulled the plug to the iacv , no real change in the engine idle speed what so ever, then I set the idle down to 625 650 ish, re connected the iacv plug , let it run for a minute, shut car off, and took out radio/back up fuse. waiting for the engine to cool down now.


            oh, and just for shits, I checked everywhere again for air leaks using water, then carb cleaner.

            at the end of this video, see where he is idling? is that where I should be?
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKedh8yh7Hw
            Last edited by 802cb7; 10-15-2014, 09:35 PM.
            For the love of god, STOP putting H.I.D's in stock housings!!! Projectors ONLY!!!

            Comment


              #21
              UPDATE: waited until engine was stone cold, put the 7.5 fuse back in, let it run 5 minutes, idle was perfect! but as I was backing out of the garage the car died. its never done that, restarted the car and just stepped on it up the road, went for about a 10 mile drive and as I got home stopped in front of the garage and checked the idle back at 1000!!!!! I give up, I give up!!!!

              So saturday I'm going to grab the ecu and intake manifold from an F22A6 at the junk yard. The cam is different too right? oh, and I looked everywhere for that plug in the kick panel. its not there, just that blue one I mentioned with male pins.
              For the love of god, STOP putting H.I.D's in stock housings!!! Projectors ONLY!!!

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by SEgirl View Post
                Thanks for the info. If I start it and just let it run for a while, eventually it slows down to a normal idle. If I start it, drive for a while (10 min), park, it's fine. If I start and then stop again right away, it does start revving in park, but not neutral. From everything I've read, I thought it was the ICV.
                That it's doing it in P and not in N is just weird, or coincidental(?). Whether in P or N the parasitic loads from the transmission are the same, so it shouldn't make any difference....?

                Have you looked at the fast idle control valve? This is the valve that causes the idle rpm to be high when the engine is initially started, and then to slow down as the engine starts getting a bit of temperature. Looking at the engine from the front of the car, it's located on the front of the plenum just to the right of the IACV, with two coolant hoses attached to the bottom of it.

                If it's faulty then I don't think it can be repaired (unless it's just a leaky gasket). To check it I'd remove it and then blank off the inlet hole (X 2 from memory?) in the plenum wall. The symptom should disappear if air can't get into the plenum via the hole(s?) in the plenum wall.

                FWIW, if it were my car and I found this valve to be faulty I'd be tempted to just blank off the air passage(s?) in the plenum. The fast idle function only acts for a relatively brief time after start up, at least with my car.

                Originally posted by SEgirl View Post
                I can't find it now, but I read a post recently about a car idling differently when just turning the wheel back and forth when in park. Out of curiosity, I did that today before I drove home, and sure enough, the idle changed when I turned the wheel. It slowed down when I turned left or right, but revved up again when the wheels were straight.
                The PS adds a parasitic load to the engine, which will slow down as a result. The ECU should detect this and counter by opening the IACV (or rather, it will lengthen the IACV pulse width, i.e. the period of time the valve is open, to allow more inflow), but, the response may not be quick enough that the changes in idle rpm are not noticeable. If the idle speed is already above spec then the ECU won't make any attempt to change the rpm, so rpm drop as a result of parasitic loading will be more obvious.
                Regards from Oz,
                John.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by 802cb7 View Post
                  oh, and I looked everywhere for that plug in the kick panel. its not there, just that blue one I mentioned with male pins.
                  On my car the female diagnostic plug (and I've never come across a similar male plug) is on the left side of the passenger footwell, tucked up just above the plastic side kick plate. It's possible that yours is hanging down behind the kick plate, so if you remove that you may find it. Note that my car is RHD, for LHD cars it may or may not be on the passenger side of the car.
                  Regards from Oz,
                  John.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by johnl View Post
                    On my car the female diagnostic plug (and I've never come across a similar male plug) is on the left side of the passenger footwell, tucked up just above the plastic side kick plate. It's possible that yours is hanging down behind the kick plate, so if you remove that you may find it. Note that my car is RHD, for LHD cars it may or may not be on the passenger side of the car.
                    thanks john. I have cleaned it out and adjusted it all the way down. This is the plug I find. [/URL]

                    I believe however my old factory alarm system was attached to this? Ill take a even better look tomorrow for the plug.
                    Last edited by 802cb7; 10-16-2014, 07:33 PM.
                    For the love of god, STOP putting H.I.D's in stock housings!!! Projectors ONLY!!!

                    Comment


                      #25
                      ok, found out 1990 is this plug.

                      http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=146242
                      For the love of god, STOP putting H.I.D's in stock housings!!! Projectors ONLY!!!

                      Comment


                        #26
                        When I got in the car this morning, when I first started it, it was actually a little over 2K. I didn't wait for it to slow down on it's own, backed out of the driveway onto the road, and put it in drive. It basically drove itself, meaning I didn't need to accelerate. It went at a low rate of speed, but it didn't slow down. The road I live on is short, so I did have to stop soon at a stop sign. I'm curious how long it would have kept going on it's own before slowing down.

                        When I got in the car this afternoon to go home, the idle was little over 1K. Not sure if it being warmer outside had anything to do with that. There's a fairly steep drop from our parking lot onto the road, so I held it back to go slow to not scrape the bumper and then had someone behind me so I accelerated and didn't get to see if it would drive itself this afternoon.



                        Originally posted by johnl View Post
                        That's definitely too high. It could be an air leak, or it might be that the base idle is too high. The air bleed screw O ring may be leaking (or there may be a leak at any number of other points), or the screw may have backed out due to the O ring having lost 'tension'. I'd try setting base idle to spec (plus make sure the screw isn't loose). If that doesn't work then start looking for other leaks.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Thanks for the info. I know where the ICV is, but never really looked at it or played with it. I do have a Honda service manual so I'll take a look at that, too, and see what it says.



                          Originally posted by johnl View Post
                          That it's doing it in P and not in N is just weird, or coincidental(?). Whether in P or N the parasitic loads from the transmission are the same, so it shouldn't make any difference....?

                          Have you looked at the fast idle control valve? This is the valve that causes the idle rpm to be high when the engine is initially started, and then to slow down as the engine starts getting a bit of temperature. Looking at the engine from the front of the car, it's located on the front of the plenum just to the right of the IACV, with two coolant hoses attached to the bottom of it.

                          If it's faulty then I don't think it can be repaired (unless it's just a leaky gasket). To check it I'd remove it and then blank off the inlet hole (X 2 from memory?) in the plenum wall. The symptom should disappear if air can't get into the plenum via the hole(s?) in the plenum wall.

                          FWIW, if it were my car and I found this valve to be faulty I'd be tempted to just blank off the air passage(s?) in the plenum. The fast idle function only acts for a relatively brief time after start up, at least with my car.



                          The PS adds a parasitic load to the engine, which will slow down as a result. The ECU should detect this and counter by opening the IACV (or rather, it will lengthen the IACV pulse width, i.e. the period of time the valve is open, to allow more inflow), but, the response may not be quick enough that the changes in idle rpm are not noticeable. If the idle speed is already above spec then the ECU won't make any attempt to change the rpm, so rpm drop as a result of parasitic loading will be more obvious.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by 802cb7 View Post
                            This is the plug I find. ...... I believe however my old factory alarm system was attached to this? Ill take a even better look tomorrow for the plug.
                            I don't think that is the diagnostic plug. The end shape is different to mine. I can't see the colour of the non red wire in your photo, my plug has a red wire and a dark green wire (with two white stripes). The plug in the photo also appears to have a clear plastic cover, which mine doesn't.
                            Regards from Oz,
                            John.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by SEgirl View Post
                              Thanks for the info. I know where the ICV is, but never really looked at it or played with it. I do have a Honda service manual so I'll take a look at that, too, and see what it says.
                              Honda call it an 'IACV' (idle air control valve), but other manufacturers may call it something slightly different.

                              For diagnostic purposes, if you disconnect the IACV electrical connector then it should stop working and any high revving issues that might be associated with it (if faulty) should go away. Bear in mind though that the engine will then idle at the 'base idle' speed (which may be the spec idle, but may well be less), and the ECU will no longer be able to adjust the idle speed to account for parasitic drag on the engine such as caused by the AC, PS, electrical loads through the alternator, or loads through an automatic transmission (which are different in P and N than in D or R). And, disconnecting the IACV will cause a CEL.

                              As an aside, one more thing the IACV annoyingly does is to prevent rpm from falling the instant you lift off the throttle pedal. The IACV remains momentarily 'open' when you lift of the throttle pedal, so rpm kind of 'hang' high for a brief time. This is an emissions related 'feature' to lessen some of the pollutant gasses caused by closed throttle running (oxides of nitrogen from unreliable memory). It's noticeable with manual cars, automatics less so.

                              It used to drive me nuts because it interferes with how cleanly and quickly the gears can be shifted, so much so that I've blanked off the air passages in my IACV so that it can have no affect. Unfortunately this also means that the ECU can no longer adjust idle rpm to account for parasitic drag on the engine, which I've compensated for by raising the idle speed to about 900rpm (so drag doesn't lower the idle speed to the point at which the engine starts vibrating objectionably). The idle does still drop with auxiliary drag, especially with AC, but only to about spec idle speed.

                              You can achieve the same thing just by disconnecting the IACV (and raising the rpm), but a CEL will exist.
                              Regards from Oz,
                              John.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by johnl View Post
                                You can achieve the same thing just by disconnecting the IACV (and raising the rpm), but a CEL will exist.
                                Thinking back, I think I recall that simply disconnecting the IACV (as opposed to blanking off it's air passages) caused another issue that caused quite harsh on / off throttle behaviour. I think it must have been related to the injector cut off, i.e. the ECU detects some 'fault' with the IACV and then changes the manner in which the injectors cut out and in as the throttle is lifted and then re-applied, causing a 'snatchy' on / off throttle power delivery.

                                This doesn't occur with the IACV connected but it's orifices to the plenum blanked off. It's easy to blank the orifices by fitting the IACV using a gasket made from thick gasket paper, but no orifice apertures in the gasket.
                                Regards from Oz,
                                John.

                                Comment

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