ignition timing and EGT's

[rexload]

**this post(and the following) were moved over from the bin file depository thread. **


there is one F22 16G map: ~23degrees at 0vac and 12degrees at 11psi
and another F22 16G map: ~32degrees at 0vac and 26degrees at 11psi
and the fuel tables look nothing alike...weird?

[d112crzy]

there is one F22 16G map: ~23degrees at 0vac and 12degrees at 11psi
and another F22 16G map: ~32degrees at 0vac and 26degrees at 11psi
and the fuel tables look nothing alike...weird?

I'd stay away from the one that has "ck" on it. It has WAY too much timing.

No two tunes will ever be alike regardless if the setup is identical. Every motor has it's own fuel curve so the fuel map will look different. This is why running on a basemap for too long is not a great idea.

[dbsharp]

Maybe he was using some kick ass fuel and a cold ass plug? I doubt it though.

[MRX]

Maybe he was using some kick ass fuel and a cold ass plug? I doubt it though.

93 octane and a step down colder plugs. That was my setup, the t3/t4, fmic, phenolic gasket, msd 6a, 2.5" dp, 3" exhaust, heat wrap, & cam gear. Never labeled it like i should have. Stock engine but with almost every add on I could get my hands on. Anyways, I can see all the maps now and I reloaded them. And 26 degrees wasn't that much on a good strong setup especially since it was dyno tuned and promoted a straight torque curve. Besides, after peak torque the more you retard the timing for our motors the higher the egt's go. ESPECIALLY with turbo h22's.

I'll get around to loading others but those should do for now

[WiKKeDV16]

seriously.. now it makes sense why alot of people grenade their engines..


27* alot of timing? hardly.. its up there.. but nothing crazy..


low timing = high egt = buh bye piston rings after a while..

high timing = lower egt = risk of detonation..


ah the flip of coin toss ey?

i choose the latter... with meth injection

[MRX]

I didn't bother to look who uploaded it. I thought that maybe some random person put it on there. That just sounds like a lot of timing to me, but if the motor liked it then go with it.

The most important number, as far as timing goes, is where peak torque happens.

[dbsharp]

seriously.. now it makes sense why alot of people grenade their engines..


27* alot of timing? hardly.. its up there.. but nothing crazy..


low timing = high egt = buh bye piston rings after a while..

high timing = lower egt = risk of detonation..


ah the flip of coin toss ey?

i choose the latter... with meth injection

So you don't think that 27 deg is a lot of timing for 11 psi? Granted that every setup is going to be a bit different: fuel, sparkplugs, base timing, etc... all affect this.

Would you set up a map to start tuning with that had 27 deg timing in it at 11psi, on your average turbo build? I hope not.

[WiKKeDV16]

obviously 27* was the end result.. not a basemap.. nore the beginning of tuning..

and one should note that any map posted on ANY bin-directory must be enrichend and retarded in timing.. as its TUNED for a specific setup.. thus.. retuning is required..


so no.. i wouldnt run 27* right off the bat.. but have i gotten up there ? yes.. plenty of times.. as a end result.. meaning.. towards the end of the tuning session..

[d112crzy]

seriously.. now it makes sense why alot of people grenade their engines..


27* alot of timing? hardly.. its up there.. but nothing crazy..


low timing = high egt = buh bye piston rings after a while..

high timing = lower egt = risk of detonation..


ah the flip of coin toss ey?

i choose the latter... with meth injection

You ever taken a look at spark plugs? Your theory is nice(and true most of the time), but how do YOU know the EGT's are high?

I'd never run that much timing on anything past 5psi, especially on crome. Timing varies too much. Yes, you'll make more power(not much over something like 20* at 11psi) but at the risk of blowing up a motor. No thanks.

I'd like to see what the spark plugs look like after a 27*, 11psi pull. Not good I'm sure.

[WiKKeDV16]

how do i know? its called datalogging..


lower timing has yielded alot higher egts.. than running higher timing.. as for the plugs.. they look fine.

i hate to bring in a member into this debate.. but i will

gdoutflip..

using zeitronix wb/DLer

was able to significantly drop egts back down with rising timing.. his timing is on the high side.. respectively speaking in comparison to his old map that was posted(first page)

his log manifold doesnt help him.. nor did the .48ar turbine housing.. so i sent him a .63ar turbine housing.. which help eliviate some of that backpressure (egt causing)

and used methanol to help with the added timing (avoid detonation) while succesfully dropping the EGTs.. i believe this mornings log infact was 801*F at 6k and 26.25* @ 6K

now let gdout drop the timing to say low 20s.. egt will rise to the 850-60 range.


regardless.. your right.. the timing is high.. and if the turbo setup isnt efficient.. IAT temps/compressor efficiency.. FMIC etc.. yeah 27 degree's might be alot.. but paired with a good airfuel its fine.. i try to stick with mid 11s.. to give me a seasaw to go either way lean/rich dependant on climate conditions.

take the beater for example.. you rode in it.. if memory serves the last column in crome my peak timing was 24-26 degrees around 4.5-5k or so.. on the dyno (Cant remember)

and that car only died because of revving it high (7k)

new bearings and it would be back on the road.. motor is still heathy

[MRX]

You ever taken a look at spark plugs? Your theory is nice(and true most of the time), but how do YOU know the EGT's are high?

I'd never run that much timing on anything past 5psi, especially on crome. Timing varies too much. Yes, you'll make more power(not much over something like 20* at 11psi) but at the risk of blowing up a motor. No thanks.

I'd like to see what the spark plugs look like after a 27*, 11psi pull. Not good I'm sure.

did it for almost two years, spark plugs always looked great. No little white specks, no little holes...light brown like it should have been. Not just on my motor either, several of them. I ran across "increased timing" on that oldmanhonda site (can't remember the name), took what they said and researched it for about 3 months. Slowly put the theories to the test by amp'ing the timing up about a degree at a time over several weeks. I ended up settling at 26-27*.

I even stopped somewhere along the 24-25* range, picked up 4 sets of cheap spark plugs, did 10 psi runs shutting down at about 6500 rpm, and pulling the plugs. Each set was fine, every last one of them.


I promise, I'm not crazy. I don't tune aggressively because most all of us use these cars as DD's...but it's what the motors want. I think I started off with around 21-22* when I first boosted though. And it increasing the timing did make for a hell of a difference, about 45+ whp.

And there's actually a fine line with the egts (for those who don't know). You can use lower timing in the lower rpm's to help the turbo spool up faster because of the higher egt's. But then once the power starts to increase it is safer to use higher timing.

[WiKKeDV16]

agreed to the max antoine...


not saying joser is wrong.. he is right to a degree.. too much timing with a small turbo'd setup or something along those lines.. and yeah.. this much timing isnt best.


but.. ive been told since when i started messing with crome by several people.. to keep egt between 750-850.. and thats the general rule of thumb ive always followed.. has served me well so far..

[MRX]

agreed to the max antoine...


not saying joser is wrong.. he is right to a degree.. too much timing with a small turbo'd setup or something along those lines.. and yeah.. this much timing isnt best.

Definately and my maps reflect that. The quality of the charge air is very important. The colder it is the more timing you can run.

These ideas were all test on my own setup. If it blew up I wouldn't be saying any of this.

[WiKKeDV16]

lol... it did blow up... turbos... that is..

and axles..

hahaha

[d112crzy]

Never had a motor blow up on me and I don't ever run anywhere near the timing you guys do.

I also tend to help out in building the setups I tune, so they are as efficient as possible. I've tried adding timing, with little to no effect. I've tuned....maybe 1 setup with a log?

Anyways, I'll start a new thread later and move the last few posts. Good readings here.