dsm turbo parts tuning etc.

[JonnyD]

So I have been trying to learn as much as I can about turbo setups. A couple things I cant seem to figure out are ecu tuning and a fuel management system. Do I need both? Is there no system that is sort of plug and play like the programmers for diesel trucks? Could I not use a laptop? I have been searching the internet for about a week now and can not find these answers. It'll be going on an f22a6, I plan to use a dsm manifold, 16b, dsm 450 injectors and ebay cooler lines and intercooler etc. It seems the most expensive part of the build would be forged pistons. I want to make 225-250 whp and around the same tourque numbers. Am I on the right track here? The techs at my shop have no clue about anything turbo. Is there a thread on here I have missed with someone who has done exactly this? Thanks for any positive input. I plan to spend the summer aquiring parts and knowledge and start the build next fall.

[JonnyD]

So am I waaaay off track here? Or have I posted this in the wrong section? Is there anyone who could point me in the right direction or suggest a book or website I could get the needed info from?

[djcaz_aom]

Try pgmfi.org Lots of tuning info on there. You will probably want to get a chipped p06 and get a good tune. Don't forget to get a wide band O2 sensor.

[JonnyD]

Thanks! One problem is I dont know anywhere close with a dyno much less a shop that would tune a turbo set up. Is it possible to get it set up close enough to be able to drive it three hours to get it dyno tuned?

[deevergote]

You haven't gotten many responses yet because 1) you posted this on a friday, when people work and then go out for fun, 2) your title/question is quite vague, and 3) there aren't that many turbo experts on here. Be patient.

A chipped ECU IS a "fuel management system".
You can do a street tune and be safe, but you have to know what you're doing. Given the scope of your question, that's clearly not the case yet. You have a lot to learn! The ECU tuning section of this forum will be a good place to start. pgmfi.org (if they're still around...) is good, but there's a LOT of info there... and you'll likely get ripped a new one if you post a question like this. If you go there, read. Read, read, read, read, read. Ask only when you're absolutely sure you can't find the answer you need.

I'd suggest getting a chipped ECU and all the equipment you'd need to tune before adding the turbo. Practice on the stock F22A6, and you'll be far less likely to do damage. If you read carefully, and learn what you're doing before you attempt it, you could end up being quite familiar with the process by the time you add the turbo. It's really not even necessary to go to a dyno if you can do a good street tune. A good street tune will be plenty safe. A dyno tune will pull more power, though.

Also, it's a 16G that you want, not a 16b.

[JonnyD]

Awesome! Thanks for the info this was what I was looking for. Thank you sir!

[ON_N20]

Thanks! One problem is I dont know anywhere close with a dyno much less a shop that would tune a turbo set up. Is it possible to get it set up close enough to be able to drive it three hours to get it dyno tuned?

If your planning on intially "tuning" the map yourself and then letting a tuner do the rest, you can find a stock accord BIN (map) upload this, modify the injector settings to match your injectors and any other non-stock options like MAP sensor, and leave the charge pipe off so you dont go into boost. It should be driveable like-stock at this point, and since the charge pipe is off you wont have to worry about accidental boosting on a map that hasnt been fully tuned.

My current set up is fairly similiar to your current plans. There is no straight plug and play tuning option that I know of. Your choice of injectors, and other options are variables that an out of the box system cant account for.

Generally you will need to aquire a "tuneable" PCM such as a P06, modify it to handle either the burnable ROM chip, emulator, or other products like the Hondata Sx00 systems. Also it would be wise to add a datalogging cable. You will need to decide which type of software you would like to run, there are many to choose from such as Crome, Neptune, Hondata etc.

A wideband oxygen gauge would be highly reccomended, however if a tuner is going to be doing the tuning for you, you may not need to buy your own. They should have their own wideband gauge for tuning purposes. I personally would still reccomend you install your own however.

[deevergote]

A vacuum gauge is also a useful tool to have when tuning.

[TheProfessional]

So I have been trying to learn as much as I can about turbo setups. A couple things I cant seem to figure out are ecu tuning and a fuel management system. Do I need both?

It depends on your budget, your budget in this particular aspect can effect the reliability of your swap. Some would suggest getting a chipped basemap on a P06 but in truth, it wouldn't beat out running an S300 with a Full tune on it (Partial throttle, Wide Open throttle, and cold start). If it were me personally, I wouldn't bother unless I was going to do it the right way (S300). As for your fuel you will of course need to beef up your injectors and your fuel pump. Again, using an S300 or some sort of stand alone unit will allow you to make the MOST power, most efficiently with those upgrades accounted for.

Is there no system that is sort of plug and play like the programmers for diesel trucks? Could I not use a laptop? I have been searching the internet for about a week now and can not find these answers.

If you go with an S300, you could use a Laptop and any of the many programs avail. On the market that will allow you programming of your map, in full, however, I would't bother with it unless you know what youre doing as you could ROYALLY screw over your entire set up VERY easily. It's best to leave this in the hands of a professional and call it a day. If you're going the Chipped ECU route then your options are limited, granted someone who knows how to use Uberdata/Turboedit could keep programming a different map for you, the process is long and infuriating to keep repeating where as an S300 would make ones life alot easier, and you could tune on the fly.[/Quote]

It'll be going on an f22a6, I plan to use a dsm manifold, 16b, dsm 450 injectors and ebay cooler lines and intercooler etc. It seems the most expensive part of the build would be forged pistons. I want to make 225-250 whp and around the same tourque numbers. Am I on the right track here?

In my opinion the DSM set up is garbage (and u might have fitment issues), but if that's all you have to go with, then so be it. 450cc injectors are a little to small, considering the Set you're going with i'd push for 700 or better, but again, this will also fall onto whatever route you're going ECU wise. In all truth and honesty i'm not 100% sure you're going to touch your HP goals with that turbo, is this the TDO5 one? If you're goal is JUST 300 hp (Not that i'd push YOU to do it, but I have with success) I wouldn't touch anything, I have crew members with F22 Swaps bone stock, pushing 400whp for the last 3-4 years with no issues. You have to decide which ECU you're going to go with, and that will drastically effect what you should be doing here. S300 + 700cc+ Injectors + THAT turbo Set up = Reliable, tunable Power even on a stock motor.

The techs at my shop have no clue about anything turbo. Is there a thread on here I have missed with someone who has done exactly this? Thanks for any positive input. I plan to spend the summer aquiring parts and knowledge and start the build next fall.

I am willing to help you best I can but if you use google i'm sure you're bound to pick up something. Boosting is a straight forward thing IF YOU DO THE HOMEWORK AND TAKE THE TIME TO DO IT CORRECTLY. You really need to sit down and make a plan as far as what way you're going to go, Figure out your ECU choice first and that'll put you on the path you want to walk. Your Power Goals are realistic, it's been done, but right now you' have to procure some reliability and imho that involves getting a fully tunable ECU and a TUNE to go along with it, whether you're gonna run the motor stock, rebuilt oEM, or upgraded.

[deevergote]

You can tune on the fly with Uberdata, Crome, ECTune, etc... using an Ostritch.

[rexload]

If it were me personally, I wouldn't bother unless I was going to do it the right way (S300).

How is S300 the only "right way"? CromeFree does the exact same thing for free. And what about eCtune - much more cost effective for his power goals.

you will of course need to beef up your fuel pump.

Wrong. OEM Honda fuel pump is sufficient for his power goals.

I would't bother with it unless you know what youre doing as you could ROYALLY screw over your entire set up VERY easily. It's best to leave this in the hands of a professional and call it a day.

It is just a matter of getting his fuel to 11.5ish and hitting one button in the software to retard the timing X degrees per pound of boost. Then setting the values to get it to start and idle right with bigger injectors. That's it. What else is a "professional" going to?

the process is long and infuriating to keep repeating where as an S300 would make ones life alot easier, and you could tune on the fly.

Wrong, CromeFree (among many other options) does tuning on the fly.

In my opinion the DSM set up is garbage (and u might have fitment issues)

How is it garbage when it is factory mitsubishi setup that is both reliable and makes good power on F22? With a 16g he is looking at 250ish whp at 10psi or less with instant response. How is that garbage? There are no "fitment issues", just a few things to address just like with any turbo install on a non-turbo vehicle.

450cc injectors are a little to small

Wrong. Sufficient for his power goals.

F22 Swaps bone stock, pushing 400whp for the last 3-4 years with no issues.

I call bullshit. Maybe driving the car 3000 miles a year and babying it. Number of years doesn't mean shit. How many miles? How many passes at the track? 400whp stock F22 for years? Sounds like a bunch of bull to me. The ringlands would be done after a few days at the track no matter how good your tune is.

[JonnyD]

Thanks so much for the help guys! I havent bought any of the parts yet and I can get disgustingly cheap parts from one of the salvage yards here. I think I will stay with my original plan using dsm stuff. I'm gonna start buying parts soon I just have to wait until an eclipse shows up at the yard so I can pull the parts. I may go with a brand new turbo, but I am kinda leery about the dsm turbos I see on ebay for like $300 I don't know if they are any good or how much to spend to get a decent one.

[toycar]

14b turbo could easily get you into the 220's with everything else you have in mind and would cost a portion of a 16g. Difference in money could buy you a nice cam, something to consider since you have gone from N/A to Forced induction. Too much power on the street is no fun, so if it were me I would consider this.

I am actually thinking about downgrading from my Evo 3 16g to a 14b so it will be more fun for dd'ing around town. Torque steer becomes an issue among MANY other things. Either way any DSM manifold were work on either 16g, 14b or t25 turbo. The evo mani is best, followed by the 2g mani. I would stay away from the t25 turbo, its too small. Whatever you do, set it up correctly. Coolant lines are GREAT for stretching out the life of your turbo.

DSM 450cc's ARE just fine. I peaked mine out on a MHI-16g running e85 when I was logging around 29/30lbs/min of flow. So, something in the tune of 260-270WHP. Wasn't on a dyno, but they will handle 220-250whp on a 16g no problemo w/pump gas. E85 requires more flow for same delivery(off topic).


I am currently logging 36lbs/min on a 22psi internal wastegate(OEM Evo)- which is in the ballpark of 300-310whp or so. Have yet to actually see a dyno. I use an emulator for tuning so I can sit in the passenger seat and adjust on the fly.


A data setup on the ecu is a must so you can log your tunes. If you are going to have a tuner handle the tune, you probably can get away w/out a wideband. I personally run one so I can monitor whats going on. They aren't THAT expensive for the benefits they offer. If you plan on tuning, its a MUST have part.



Forged internals are absoloutely needed. Rods are less likely to fail, but pistons are going to shatter eventually. Rod design needs to be altered to accept a forged piston. Can be done, but just get forged rods while you are at it. Much better option, and after machine work on oem rods the difference in cost is a couple hundred bux at best. There are lots of benefits to running forged rods as well. NOTHING about the oem rods are better, aside from cost.


Tuning software is tuning software. Get with a tuner and find out what they prefer if you want the best outcome and don't have a preference. They all generally speaking work. Getting an ecu that is already modded is pretty easy. I bought one off ebay for like $200 and it came with tuning software, setup for data logging and was ready out of the box. You can source them cheaper on forums and shit. I was lazy about it, plus I wanted reliable so I went with a company that had a good rep.





One thing I will tell you is that you should really be learning about what you are doing on your own. There is a science to all of this, and it IS based on fact. I am not saying this to be disrespectful, but some people are going to give you bad advise. It's hard to know whos shooting straight with you.


You need to learn so you can weed through that bullshit and enjoy success at your hobby. It will get frustrating if you blindly follow advice you get from people online, and then repeatedly have to learn the hard way in return.


Best of luck

[JonnyD]

Thanks for the info Toycar, I am trying to learn everything I can on my own first, asking for help second, I'm not rushing in to this and I do have the time to do it all as properly as I can for reliabilities sake. I don't depend on this car for daily transportation because right now I have three other vehicles but I do want to take it on some long road trips so the more reliable the better. Thanks again!

[TheProfessional]

Ah. I'm always up for the guys who could easily disagree without being a douche but chose to be so for cool points. You do know the OP isn't gonna pipe you off or jump your bones for shining in his thread right? You get no cookies or cool points, but if it' self gratification then have at it! lol

How is S300 the only "right way"? CromeFree does the exact same thing for free. And what about eCtune - much more cost effective for his power goals.

I never said that it was the "ONLY RIGHT WAY" only specifying that this method or something AS in depth and efficient would be the preferred choice. I can't speak on anything but what has gotten me success or something I don't have knowledge of using myself so this was what I suggested (With willingness to go in further depth about it for the op if needed). IF eCtune is more cost effective? Then I'd thank and applaud you for coming up with a cheaper alternative that still helps him bro. Power to you.

Wrong. OEM Honda fuel pump is sufficient for his power goals.

It might be SUFFICIENT, doesn't mean it's the most sufficient option for what he's attempting to do. I don't think you'd find to many boosted members on here running stock fuel pumps in their set ups, and most would upgrade anyway just incase later on down the line they plan on ultimately making more power down the line. The name of the game is to do it well the first time so that you don't have to re-visit parts again the next go around when you strive for more power.[/quote[

It is just a matter of getting his fuel to 11.5ish and hitting one button in the software to retard the timing X degrees per pound of boost. Then setting the values to get it to start and idle right with bigger injectors. That's it. What else is a "professional" going to?

So we're assuming the OP already has extensive knowledge of Tuning and Tuning software? Kinda defeats the purpose of ASKING for help in the first place if that was the case right?? This is the point where you go from giving actual good advice, to just being a flat out dick. Doesn't help him that, that's common knowledge to YOU...where it isn't for the OP.

Wrong, CromeFree (among many other options) does tuning on the fly.

Again, lol, being a dick. I never said that the S300 was the ABSOLUTE and the ONLY method he could take, I never said it was the only Tune-On-the-fly option. But you're in here with your cape out for what tho? To state something i'm sure the OP would discover---that there are other tune-on-the-fly options besides what I recommended?? Thanks captain obvious! lmao...

How is it garbage when it is factory mitsubishi setup that is both reliable and makes good power on F22? With a 16g he is looking at 250ish whp at 10psi or less with instant response. How is that garbage? There are no "fitment issues", just a few things to address just like with any turbo install on a non-turbo vehicle.

My personal opinion and I'm entitled. For the money? (Unless he's yanking it straight off a wrecker) there are options that will perform to par or better, and best of all be NEW, with a warranty. This man is actually considering tearing the motor apart and addressing internals, he UP's the compression, especially, there are definitely other units that can deliver more power, using less boost. NEVER did I tell him NOT to go with the unit because I think it's garbage, I JUST SAID, in my opinion, it's a trash unit. I'm entitled.

Wrong. Sufficient for his power goals.

Again, Sufficient?? Maybe, up to a point, until he decides he'd like to strive for more power, and winds up having to buy another, bigger set anyway. Could easily cop a set of 770's or even 1000's, dial them in and be SET across the board as he aspires for more power. Thinking "Minimalist" will only have you buying the same parts twice when you could have covered it once.

I call bullshit. Maybe driving the car 3000 miles a year and babying it. Number of years doesn't mean shit. How many miles? How many passes at the track? 400whp stock F22 for years? Sounds like a bunch of bull to me. The ringlands would be done after a few days at the track no matter how good your tune is.

Thankfully! In this world! You're not god or absolute, lol so when you call BS, it's JUST an opinion----of a douche's for that matter lol. 3 F22 set ups, 1 was torn down for a complete overaul OEM, the other torn down and MILDLY upgraded with a better oil pump, shotpeened rods, ARP connecting rod bolts and wrist pins and some head work, and the other was a low-mileage pull from engine depot. All 3 are running 15pounds or better, good tunes, used for daily driving, downhill runs and 1 see's occasional Auto-Cross when it's local. The oldest set up has been on the road 4 years, no issues, I think the only thing that went so far was an alternator belt. No smokes, no CEL's no leaking.


Sorry guy. But i'll keep you posted when and IF something does break. LOL. I love douche's man, who knew they had more uses then keeping pussies clean? Their amusing to watch attempt to Troll to! lol