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New Hybrid Turbo

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    New Hybrid Turbo

    Saw this on Facebook this morning....discussion anyone?










    Originally posted by OppositeLock.Jalopnik.Com

    You don't like hybrids you say. You miss the sound of the V10s you tell me.

    Get over it. Because here ladies and gentleman we have the best thing to happen to the performance engine since the V8.

    Everyone who has a passing interest in forced induction knows superchargers and turbochargers both have significant advantages and drawbacks.

    Superchargers are driven directly via engine torque and thus offer N/A like throttle response and torque curves (the good ones anyway. ) However, crank torque is precious and using it to power your intake compressor is like using your 401k funds to fund a lucrative investment. Sure, it might work, but you got hit with a huge withdrawal fee on the way out.

    Turbochargers on the other hand harvest waste heat energy from the exhaust. There's some price in efficiency plugging up the exhaust like that, but the net effect is overwhelmingly positive. The downside is you need exhaust energy to drive the turbine and thus create more exhaust energy - which results in lag.

    Meet the e-turbo. Turbos spend a lot of time dumping excess exhaust overboard to stop from overboosting the engine. Rather than use the wastegate (valve that bypasses the turbo) to do this these turbos turn the bearing section into a generator that harvests this energy and stores it for later use (by holding the shaft RPM constant and absorbing the excess energy trying to spin the turbine faster.) This may or may not be combined with a traditional hybrid vehicle drive system.

    What gets exciting is when you reverse the flow. Put your foot down at 1500RPM with one of these and rather than waiting for the whole system to work itself up to a high enough exhaust energy to spool the turbo and develop power - the generator reverses roles and spools the compressor. Your turbocharger briefly turns into an electronic supercharger. This rapidly increases exhaust energy/mass flow and after a second or two exhaust power takes over and the motor becomes a generator again.

    Net result? Turbocharger power and efficiency with 0 lag and fuel economy savings. Combine this system with a hybrid drive and prolonged high power operation can harvest serious waste energy from the exhaust that would otherwise be dumped overboard by waste gate and store it in the hybrid system for use as actual wheel torque. This is exciting stuff as this is exactly where most hybrid systems fall flat on their face - during cruise. The ability to actively capture this exhaust heat energy even during steady state operation is a huge boon both on the performance and the efficency fronts.

    This is the 21st century version of turbo-compounding and turbo-supercharging all rolled into one.

    More power, N/A like throttle response, better fuel efficiency. Heat-energy recovery turbocharger hybrids are pretty much the most exciting technology that we could see in road cars to come out of F1 in as long as I can remember. You want this thing.
    '94 JDM H22A: 178whp 146wtq

    Originally posted by deevergote
    If you say double dutch rudder, i'm banning you...

    #2
    So now I only have to figure out how to retrofit a hybrid drive system onto my CB7.
    My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

    Comment


      #3
      Oh hell yeah! I want!






      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Jarrett View Post
        So now I only have to figure out how to retrofit a hybrid drive system onto my CB7.
        It doesn't need one to work, unless you just want to turn your car into a golf cart. What would be interesting would be if they could figure out how to make the exhaust energy convert to electricity to be stored in the battery.
        '94 JDM H22A: 178whp 146wtq

        Originally posted by deevergote
        If you say double dutch rudder, i'm banning you...

        Comment


          #5
          That's essentially what they're doing.






          Comment


            #6
            Why do I care to store it in my battery? My alternator already does that. If I want to improve on that system I just buy an additional battery and upgrade my alternator.

            I understand that I could also upgrade the charging system and then power a hybrid system with that, but this makes the hybrid system so much more feasible in an area where it usually has not been, which is at idle speed and slightly above.
            My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

            Comment


              #7
              The energy-recovering feature of this turbo only works to store energy to spin the turbo itself. It wouldn't make any sense to power a full hybrid system. The amount of energy generated would be minimal.

              I suppose it could be cool on a hybrid vehicle to use that extra turbo energy to contribute to hybrid battery charging, like the regenerative braking systems commonly featured now. It would offer little benefit, but it'd be something.






              Comment


                #8
                That's what I mean. It would supplement an otherwise fully functioning hybrid system in the one environment where it truly needs help. It wouldn't be the sole source of power for it.
                My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

                Comment


                  #9
                  It would make sense in that sense, I agree. Once the battery for the "electric supercharger" aspect has been charged, the overflow could be rerouted to a standard hybrid battery.

                  The new NSX should have two of these suckers






                  Comment


                    #10
                    Nah, looks like a thought experiment to me. I have been entertaining the thought of an eV in my life so here is what I think:
                    turn the bearing section into a generator that harvests this energy and stores it for later use (by holding the shaft RPM constant and absorbing the excess energy trying to spin the turbine faster.)
                    It looks like a mini AC induction/BLDC motor. If you can use the BEMF to charge a bank of capacitors up, instead of using batteries, you could have almost unlimited current available, for a short amount of time of course.

                    You would use some type of BMS to alert the system to stop charging and just spin freely to avoid the load that the generator would put in the exhaust system. If you do that you may overboost the engine. So I guess you could use it to maintain a charge at that set rpm.

                    It may be geared to take advantage of the turbine shaft rpm. A higher generator rpm = higher BEMF which in turn can charge a higher voltage battery pack/ cap bank. Since it is using it as a "wastegate", I would assume that the shaft is already spinning very fast.

                    As a motor, it would have to generate a good amount of torque at a set range so the exhaust can continue spooling the turbo. So say from 0 to 2000 engine rpm, it should be able to spin the compressor at 'x' rpm for 'y' amount of time. That's going to be up to the controller/inverter to handle.

                    Now here is the fun part, charging a hybrid battery pack...just no. I don't see that being a good idea. I can see that little motor putting out maybe 1-2 kWh worth of energy. High voltage and low current type regen... It would have to be greater than the pumping loss from back pressure to be effective.
                    Last edited by sonikaccord; 11-21-2013, 11:37 AM.

                    YouTube Clicky!!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I'm just thinking of funneling the excess energy generated once the turbo's battery has been fully charged. It'd be minimal, sure... like the braking systems (they don't offer much of a gain either)... but it'd be something. Better than simply wasting it!






                      Comment


                        #12
                        tuning would be a nightmare.
                        And what if electronics cut off, does the tune automatically appropriate for
                        what your mixture is. What if it doesn't turn on when it is supposed to?

                        IMO this would lead to disaster, but def an interesting idea.
                        MadLab Racing
                        Southern Maryland


                        Comment


                          #13
                          where would the excess energy go?

                          Tuning should be like a supercharger tune, it can keep constant boost at all rpms theoretically of course with the motor controlling the shaft speed.

                          If it cuts out, it'll be the same as a wastegate failing.

                          If it doesn't turn on, the controller should notify the ECU and tell it to revert to a default setting like a normally turbocharged car.

                          Since we're bringing up failure modes, how reliable do you guys think this would be? I see the number one enemy being heat. Luckily, you can water cool ac/bldc motors. Some type of heat insulator between the turbine and housing would greatly help.
                          Last edited by sonikaccord; 11-21-2013, 12:42 PM.

                          YouTube Clicky!!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Yeah, heat would certainly be an issue. Electronics hate heat... and stuffing them right between the hot and cold side of a turbo is probably the worst possible place!






                            Comment


                              #15
                              We had an electric turbine compressor like that (minus the exhaust side) on the hydrogen fuel cell car I helped build in college. It sounded like a jet engine. It was also running 400 volts, and judging by the orange high-voltage vehicle wiring, this is probably running close to the same.

                              Click for my Member's Ride Thread
                              Originally posted by Stephen Fry
                              'It's now very common to hear people say, "I'm rather offended by that", as if that gives them certain rights. It's no more than a whine. It has no meaning, it has no purpose, it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. "I'm offended by that." Well, so fucking what?' —Stephen Fry
                              Eye Level Media - Commercial & Automotive Photography: www.EyeLevelSTL.com

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