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  • 93redcb7
    replied
    Originally posted by wildBill83 View Post
    Why would you want factory 20+ year old worn springs? A new cam, valve job with valves and springs should all be on your shopping list for a high hp f build.
    this is true, so i guess i could go with the supertech springs and retainers... or i could use the bisi pro springs and stock retainers

    Leave a comment:


  • wildBill83
    replied
    Why would you want factory 20+ year old worn springs? A new cam, valve job with valves and springs should all be on your shopping list for a high hp f build.

    Leave a comment:


  • 93redcb7
    replied
    Originally posted by wildBill83 View Post
    If you are dead set on building a 400+ hp f motor, save your money and buy an f22a1 since you will be upgrading the intake cam and exhaust anyway.
    not a 400+ a 350-400, i dont want more than 400. and if i think right the springs are better in an a6.

    Leave a comment:


  • wildBill83
    replied
    If you are dead set on building a 400+ hp f motor, save your money and buy an f22a1 since you will be upgrading the intake cam and exhaust anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • 93redcb7
    replied
    Originally posted by sonikaccord View Post
    It sounds like you equate low rpm power to quick 0-60 which is not the case. You won't be spending more than a couple of milliseconds below 3.5k if you are performance driving. Since this is your daily you want the benefit of VTEC. It gives you the low rpm and high rpm. The F is not going to generate much more power especially because you're limiting it to daily duty. Also, you can use the long gears of the accord transmission if you plan on making a good bit of power. The more time you can make power in a gear, the better.


    Why would you crossover when the low lobes at performing at their best? For this setup you should ignore VTEC completely as a system and look at the engine as a single cam. For simplicity, of course.


    What does the N/A graph have to do with a turbo besides being able to tell VE? Have you read some efficiency graphs of turbo's? It also looks like you don't quite get the HP/TQ relationship. It's good that the H makes it's 'peak' HP at the top AND maintains its TQ linearity. You won't get that with the F. You'll get a 'peak' HP earlier because the TQ dropoff is steeper on the F.

    I'll buy it
    i wont be limiting it to daily duty, i will also be auto-crossing and drag it once in a while, i dont have the f22 trans now, i have the h23. and yes i understand that you want longer gears to stay in boost longer.
    and yes low rpm power is going to get you 0-60 faster than high rpm power. the faster you get to the power band the faster your going to get to 60

    so use a vtec engine as a non-vtec engine... the whole benefit of the H

    my point, you get peak HP quicker with the F.

    Again that means i could put another 1,000$ into building the F correctly
    Last edited by 93redcb7; 09-16-2014, 02:50 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • sonikaccord
    replied
    Just for shits and giggles, here is one of jdm92_accorns dyno of a modified F.

    Pound for pound...stick with the H

    Leave a comment:


  • sonikaccord
    replied
    Originally posted by 93redcb7 View Post
    see it makes 100hp at 3.5k rpm, i want something that is going to be quick 0-60 not 60-120, yea i can get a turbo to spool to make power sooner, but then it runs out of efficiency and becomes basically a hair dryer... and i guess i havent added in... this is my daily driver, yes i do have another car if i need it though..
    ill be limiting my numbers based on clutch and just pure drivability, i dont want 5-600hp to just not be able to get traction.
    It sounds like you equate low rpm power to quick 0-60 which is not the case. You won't be spending more than a couple of milliseconds below 3.5k if you are performance driving. Since this is your daily you want the benefit of VTEC. It gives you the low rpm and high rpm. The F is not going to generate much more power especially because you're limiting it to daily duty. Also, you can use the long gears of the accord transmission if you plan on making a good bit of power. The more time you can make power in a gear, the better.

    Originally posted by 93redcb7 View Post
    yes i understand that you can change the crossover point of vtec, but for it to work properly you have to crossover when the lower lobes are at their highest efficiency to keep making power, kicking vtec over at 3.5k is just going to bog the motor... trust me when i swaped my h i was having issues and we manual tested it by driving and my friend hit 2 wires together for the solenoid to open, and it just flat falls on its face below say 5k rpm. So in terms of having vtec kick over sooner you would need smaller lobes to compensate for that
    Why would you crossover when the low lobes at performing at their best? For this setup you should ignore VTEC completely as a system and look at the engine as a single cam. For simplicity, of course.

    Originally posted by 93redcb7 View Post
    look at the graph you posted, with that power band your going to want to not hit full boost till about 4k ish so that your turbo doesnt run out of efficiency up top were the H makes all/most of its power. while the F is ment to not be rev'ed up like the H. I want a motor that makes power from 3-5.5k ish not from 4.5-7k
    What does the N/A graph have to do with a turbo besides being able to tell VE? Have you read some efficiency graphs of turbo's? It also looks like you don't quite get the HP/TQ relationship. It's good that the H makes it's 'peak' HP at the top AND maintains its TQ linearity. You won't get that with the F. You'll get a 'peak' HP earlier because the TQ dropoff is steeper on the F.

    Originally posted by 93redcb7 View Post
    im not saying the h22 is worthless, its quite an awesome motor N/A or high RPM boost, but i want something that is going to spool faster and make all of its power low.. Also its cheaper cause an f22 goes for what a couple 100, well i could probably sell my h with the s1 cams, s1 clutch, ostrich and hulog with the tune on it for say 1000-1200.
    I'll buy it
    Last edited by sonikaccord; 09-16-2014, 09:05 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • 93redcb7
    replied
    Originally posted by wildBill83 View Post
    Any company that grinds cams can make a smaller one than stock, but that's just silly. What I'm saying is that with correctly sized cams and a turbo plus the work you plan for the F22 would net you more bang for the buck. You are the one who talks all this about a smaller cam, not me.

    Are you really saying that people don't make quick 0-60 H22 turbo motors?

    I'm just confused as to why you think it is cheaper to get an F22A6 and then turbo it up to a high HP range rather than work on the H22... I don't see how it is possible seeing as there is more aftermarket support for an H22 than an F22.

    EDIT:
    I change my tune, the H22 is worthless, you might as well just pack it up on a crate and ship it to me. I'll dispose of it for you. Come to speak of it, my SE with a healthy F22A6 doesn't really need it's motor, so you can have it in trade for that worthless H22.
    im not saying the h22 is worthless, its quite an awesome motor N/A or high RPM boost, but i want something that is going to spool faster and make all of its power low.. Also its cheaper cause an f22 goes for what a couple 100, well i could probably sell my h with the s1 cams, s1 clutch, ostrich and hulog with the tune on it for say 1000-1200.

    Leave a comment:


  • 93redcb7
    replied
    Originally posted by wildBill83 View Post
    Any company that grinds cams can make a smaller one than stock, but that's just silly. What I'm saying is that with correctly sized cams and a turbo plus the work you plan for the F22 would net you more bang for the buck. You are the one who talks all this about a smaller cam, not me.

    Are you really saying that people don't make quick 0-60 H22 turbo motors?

    I'm just confused as to why you think it is cheaper to get an F22A6 and then turbo it up to a high HP range rather than work on the H22... I don't see how it is possible seeing as there is more aftermarket support for an H22 than an F22.

    EDIT:
    I change my tune, the H22 is worthless, you might as well just pack it up on a crate and ship it to me. I'll dispose of it for you. Come to speak of it, my SE with a healthy F22A6 doesn't really need it's motor, so you can have it in trade for that worthless H22.
    look at the graph you posted, with that power band your going to want to not hit full boost till about 4k ish so that your turbo doesnt run out of efficiency up top were the H makes all/most of its power. while the F is ment to not be rev'ed up like the H. I want a motor that makes power from 3-5.5k ish not from 4.5-7k

    Leave a comment:


  • wildBill83
    replied
    Any company that grinds cams can make a smaller one than stock, but that's just silly. What I'm saying is that with correctly sized cams and a turbo plus the work you plan for the F22 would net you more bang for the buck. You are the one who talks all this about a smaller cam, not me.

    Are you really saying that people don't make quick 0-60 H22 turbo motors?

    I'm just confused as to why you think it is cheaper to get an F22A6 and then turbo it up to a high HP range rather than work on the H22... I don't see how it is possible seeing as there is more aftermarket support for an H22 than an F22.

    EDIT:
    I change my tune, the H22 is worthless, you might as well just pack it up on a crate and ship it to me. I'll dispose of it for you. Come to speak of it, my SE with a healthy F22A6 doesn't really need it's motor, so you can have it in trade for that worthless H22.
    Last edited by wildBill83; 09-16-2014, 01:06 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • 93redcb7
    replied
    Originally posted by wildBill83 View Post
    So you aren't planning to cam your monster HP F22 motor? How would that be any different than buying a new set of cams for the H22 and putting the same amount of work into it as you plan to put into an F block? If you are going for a specific build, then you need to select every part to match. If you are telling me with the correct sized cams, tuning for early VTEC, and the correct size turbo I couldn't make a quick 0-60 car? Pshaw!
    show me someone who makes a smaller lobed cam than stock

    Leave a comment:


  • wildBill83
    replied
    So you aren't planning to cam your monster HP F22 motor? How would that be any different than buying a new set of cams for the H22 and putting the same amount of work into it as you plan to put into an F block? If you are going for a specific build, then you need to select every part to match. If you are telling me with the correct sized cams, tuning for early VTEC, and the correct size turbo I couldn't make a quick 0-60 car? Pshaw!

    Leave a comment:


  • 93redcb7
    replied
    Originally posted by wildBill83 View Post
    With an ECU tune you can change the VTEC kick in at a lower RPM and also if you size the turbo for the RPM range you actually DON'T need a big turbo or have to hit boost after 5K RPM. The sky is the limit if you are building it, size things wrong and you will be wasting money and power, size things right and magic happens.

    BTW if you are sleeving there are a good number of Darton sleeves still on ebay for 86mm F22 builds at a decent price.

    Don't forget a block guard to keep your sleeves in check for around $110.

    I would also go with Arais 86mm pistons for around $560 with H beam rods for around $250...

    So far without machining costs you are up to around $1500 without including the $1000 machining costs and seal/bearing kits.

    I haven't even gotten into the head yet, you can bet your bottom dollar I would put new OS valves on and have the valve seats machined with stiff springs and a special cam... So again another $2500 in parts, labor and machine time.

    So now I'm at around $5000 and still don't have a turbo or a running complete motor. You can expect to piece together a decent turbo kit for around $1000 (don't buy the cheapo pre-assembled generic kits). So now I'm looking at a rough estimate of around $6000, add in the unknown 25% mystery costs that come with modifications and you are now looking at something in the ball park of $7500 to get you into the 300WHP range... I haven't even included the cost of the ECU and dyno tune...
    yes i understand that you can change the crossover point of vtec, but for it to work properly you have to crossover when the lower lobes are at their highest efficiency to keep making power, kicking vtec over at 3.5k is just going to bog the motor... trust me when i swaped my h i was having issues and we manual tested it by driving and my friend hit 2 wires together for the solenoid to open, and it just flat falls on its face below say 5k rpm. So in terms of having vtec kick over sooner you would need smaller lobes to compensate for that

    Leave a comment:


  • 93redcb7
    replied
    Originally posted by sonikaccord View Post


    Not true. the h22 stock is pretty flat across the board. It becomes very efficient around 5k (+25 ish ft-lbs) and then VTEC just keeps the torque from hitting a brick wall like it does in the F.

    You sound like you want to match the turbo to the cars power band. If that's the case, the H has a wide powerband as shown in the chart. It would be easier to let the turbo determine the cars powerband. (low, mid, upper)

    10 psi isn't 10 psi for all turbo's. I would say try not to go past a certain torque value on the stock sleeves. I can't say which value because I don't know. That's going to be up to you. Also, don't limit yourself to peak numbers. If you make 600 hp at the end of your rev range, then you'll be revving all day just to reach boost. Focus on how long you can keep the torque up and the power will follow.
    see it makes 100hp at 3.5k rpm, i want something that is going to be quick 0-60 not 60-120, yea i can get a turbo to spool to make power sooner, but then it runs out of efficiency and becomes basically a hair dryer... and i guess i havent added in... this is my daily driver, yes i do have another car if i need it though..
    ill be limiting my numbers based on clutch and just pure drivability, i dont want 5-600hp to just not be able to get traction.

    Leave a comment:


  • sonikaccord
    replied
    Originally posted by 93redcb7 View Post
    Well the h22 doesn't make a whole lot of power till 5k+ and that would require a large turbo to take advantage of the power band of the h22, therefore is have to be way revved up, and everything I've read is never boost more than 10 psi on the stock frm sleeves. Don't get me wrong for 600-700+ hp the h22 is a great platform


    Not true. the h22 stock is pretty flat across the board. It becomes very efficient around 5k (+25 ish ft-lbs) and then VTEC just keeps the torque from hitting a brick wall like it does in the F.

    You sound like you want to match the turbo to the cars power band. If that's the case, the H has a wide powerband as shown in the chart. It would be easier to let the turbo determine the cars powerband. (low, mid, upper)

    10 psi isn't 10 psi for all turbo's. I would say try not to go past a certain torque value on the stock sleeves. I can't say which value because I don't know. That's going to be up to you. Also, don't limit yourself to peak numbers. If you make 600 hp at the end of your rev range, then you'll be revving all day just to reach boost. Focus on how long you can keep the torque up and the power will follow.

    Leave a comment:

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