Advice for Helical LSD trans: IMO definite read.

[jamaicancb3]

ONLY FOR HELICAL LSD TRANSMISSIONS


So this how it started. I've been told by persons (those that i know) that the H22a gears are too long for their liking. "Power wise the H-engine has it, but IMO we don't get that feel (stress the feel part) that its giving you that power unlike the B-series trans"....This is what they would say. So i would forever protest about the M2B4 & T2W4 and what they have to offer. But they're still not all that persuaded. Then they go off about the money they can spend and build power to do high 13's to low 14's on the 1/4 mile than using an H22a. So i said to myself ever since then, there has got to be a Final Drive ratio that would make us Rival the gearing of the B-series and maybe "K's"<---( maybe lol, i'm goin to post a vid to prove my point).

So tonight after a lil searching on CB7T (i was looking at an old thread about supercharging the H22 and one guy talking about it being cool to supercharge the F22). I thought to myself again, people have used to SC14 to supercharge the 2.0L 8-valve VW engines (wether in the mk2 or mk3 golfs & jettas) and other engines of that same era 80's & 90's. So why not the F20a or F22a?

So i googled it and came upon something completely different from supercharging but rather a little bit informative in THIS foreign thread:

P.S Just keep reading what i'm posting, because the videos of the guy on that page who's giving the information, {who goes by the name of Rallyprelude, real name Shaun Van Beers} i will post his vids (their on youtube) here to make it easier for you guys

http://nzhondas.com/forum/na-tuning/...-please-2.html

DON'T GO TO PAGE 1! Just read the page which is there, that is page 2.

From what i'm understanding this guy spent $1500 on a 5.2 FD and dropped it in his trans and even though he lost the top speed of 269 km/h to 211 km/h (which to him isn't a big deal if think averagely, because to the average racer or person 211 is alot and 269 is killing it). The acceleration and feel of torque to wheels was greatly improved. His second video of after the 5.2 FD really makes it seem like he's no where near dropping out of the power band and the shifts are damn close. And he even understands the issue of "it makes no sense to be redlining the H22a or hitting redline in 5th gear".

He even states of passing a rivals Evo-5 on a straight away--->

Originally Posted by rallyprelude
"You dont have to worry about a H2B kit. Dont even touch the motor, just put a 5.2 Final drive kit in the Euro box and you automatically get a huge increase in torque. I think it is a 22% increase from memory. I have done this and it is the best possible modification you can do to any H22A. They are geared for something like 269 km/h and if you FD the gearbox you can drop it to 211 kmh. But it gets there a hell of a lot faster. Better gear ratios than most other hondas and really makes the euro r motor rev freely with huge torque. Maybe throw in a set of cams and you will have a real weapon. I have overtaken Richard Masons old Group A evo 5 down a long straight in last years tarmac rally and that was with the old blacktop motor as well. Heaps of grunt over the whole rev range!!!"


So here's the before vid--->


And here's the after vid--->



And this is why i said it may possibly rival a K-series trans after the 5.2 FD (everything stock race: Euro-R CL1 vs DC5)


So what you guys think?

EDIT: ok so for some reason, i'm not seeing the videos. so here's the links:

Before: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVKOY...eature=related

After: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYqas...eature=related

Complete stock race (Euro-R CL1 vs DC5): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ef9i...LtdNDk&index=7

[cp[mike]]

iiiinteresting. only question is, where can we get a new FD?

[jamaicancb3]

iiiinteresting. only question is, where can we get a new FD?

Oh sorry my dear good man

Here's the site he got it from:

http://www.teammfactory.com/products...%20Gears&mod=H

[mndude07]

Mfactory makes several for the H series. Gearing is the secret weapon for a Honda to keep up with cars that make more torque, yet no one takes advantage of it. For example, switching from an F series gearbox to a H series automatically yields an overall 5% equivalent torque increase. That's going from 4.062 to 4.266. Imagine what a 5.15 Mfactory final would do....a 21% gain! That makes a stock H22 perform equivalently to as if it had over 190lb ft of torque.

edit: you beat me to it, that info is on Mfactory's site.

If you're staying N/A, short gears are the way to do it.

[jamaicancb3]

Lol! Sorry sir, i had to post it as soon as i saw it. The only thing that stumped me was what to put as a title. I think i've figured what to put now, i dunno

I'm fully in love with this 5.2 FD! Like i will definetly buy this thing. I'm in my bedroom right now and i'm hearing a few B-series flying down the road and all i can think to myself is *hands raised to the sky* "YES! i think i've found the remedy! to shut ALL non-believers up! NOBODY will diss the H22a again, {well all those who i talk with}. And the accord wont be considered a POS anymore (with the exception of the CF4's, CL1's and CL7's...everybody loves those).

I feel like a giddy little girl just thinking about it

EDIT: I feel this would actually put us in the low 14's easily on the 1/4 mile for those that are putting out 220 BHP or for those who have 200 BHP and then add on bolt-ons to that 200 bhp

[19dabeast85]

What would your rpms be in 5th @ 80mph with m2b4 and 5.2 fd?

[cbscandal]

Thread's kind of old but..

If you're gonna swap an Mfactory FD in there, you might as well stuff in an F22 5th gear as well. Just a thought.

[PirateMcFred]

What would your rpms be in 5th @ 80mph with m2b4 and 5.2 fd?

Depending on tire size:
60mph = 3500rpm
70mph = 4100rpm
80mph = 4600rpm

[mndude07]

Depending on tire size:
60mph = 3500rpm
70mph = 4100rpm
80mph = 4600rpm

Its actually higher than that. At 80mph with a 5.2 FD in a H22 gearbox, you'd be at about 5000rpm with 195/60/15 tires, which is the OEM size. Gearing kills off your top end very quickly. Ideally, you want to match your gearing to your powerband, and the "shorter is better" idea isn't always true. In general though, a bigger final drive is going to help out up to a point. 5.2FD might hurt you, but going from the stock F to stock H final drive is almost certainly going to help any car out.

Another thing to think about if you're boosted is where you start building boost and where you shift. What gearing makes the car the fastest? If you have a 5.2FD in a boosted car, the torque is going to be multiplied so greatly that you likely are going to have serious traction issues. So, although the car would be slower on paper with a smaller FD, you may actually make it faster by lengthening the gears, reducing your effective torque, and being able to hook the car up.

A gearbox idea I'm thinking about is the Mfactory 4.64FD, in the H series gearbox, but with the F series 5th gear if it'll fit. That will give you excellent acceleration in gears 1-4, but your 5th gear cruising rpm will be lower than the stock H series by 500-600rpms.

[PirateMcFred]

*shrug*

I thought I said "Depending on tire size."

Oh well.

[mndude07]

*shrug*

I thought I said "Depending on tire size."

Oh well.

You run larger than the oem diameter?

[PirateMcFred]

I thought nearly everyone was. 195w is a Civic size. Suitable for rolling downhill in a straight line and Accords are heavier . Wider provides more grip for sporting driving behaviour be it drag or circuit work. I usually get 215-225s for circuit work. Lots of Honda folk are rubbing 17" wheels for show, usually around 24" OD or more.

I would not get a 5.2FD for a F22 with peak power less than 6000 rpm. A 4.6FD will be a ton better than the stock 4.0 and probably better than most H-series gearboxes. It just depends on what people are using their car for. A commuter doesn't need a 5.xFD.

[jamaicancb3]

Ok, so i guess i should have been a bit more specific.

1) The advice goes out to the owners of H22's with H-series trans with Helical LSD. Keep in mind most H-trans owners with LSD have a FD of 4.26 (if not all).

2) I guess i should have said that this 5.2 FD would have been beneficial to the "around town guy", "lots of turns guy", "drag/street racer guy". These because for people like myself who live in areas that don't really have much highways or use the highways often, don't end up hitting 80 mph often. Having medium traffic, lots of stoplights & stop signs, lots of turns and anything else doesn't permit us to doing those speeds unless the opportunity is there (ie late night, little to no traffic, rushing to our destinations or idle bullruns with friends).

3) This is also for those who want to keep their motor stock or near stock (ie i/h/e) but still want to get more torque down knowning that they would be limited to about roughly 130 mph.

4) For the person who are willing to give up some revvs But are happy with that because they know that what it's doing is pulling nearly 3000kg like nothing, giving them that crazy acceleration that ALOT of lighter cars have over our CB's.

5) It goes to the persons who doesn't want to go forced induction or crazy on N/A mods, but knows that with the H22/stock H-trans combo, they can only get to mid 14's on the 1/4 mile if they are making roughly 200 WHP to 150 WTQ in full street legal trim, But want's to go faster.

6) It's for those who want to tell the Type-R/ RSX-S, wannabe power type-r, accord hater, civic/teggy imbecile " F*** You, know your place and have manners for your elders"



For the rest of people, I can understand you getting concerned about being so high in RPMs especially for miles upon end. Especially if it's your daily driver. For those of you still want to do the mod, but still want to be on the subtle side, i would say the 4.64 is for you, as the 5.2 is leaning closer to more racer status.

For those who still want to go 5.2, The idea about dropping in the F-series 5th gear in H-trans is a great idea it gives you back more top end i guess as well as revs, especially if you want to cruise. One question though, would you drop out of vtec going from 4th to 5th?

The second thing that was said by 2 persons about tire size, thanks for chiming in, I forgot to mention that. Increasing the tire/rim size would help to alter the revs to match the Final drive ratio. In turn helping with increased grip. Come on, i'm sure many of you have read the sticky about the "handbook for the accord"...being able to have a skid pad rivaling an '02 bmw m3. Using 17x8 rims, wrapped in 215/45 or 40 tires to add to visual appeal and perfomance. All performance hondas from 2002 upwards use 17 inch rims.

With all that said. If you have small, short sprints with a few straightaways, i say get the 5.2 FD. if your concerned about your revs switch out the 5th gear from a F-trans into the H-trans.

If your still concerned about your revs or don't want to mod so much, then go with the 4.6 FD

[mndude07]

I don't know if you would drop out of vtec or not, but you could easily figure it out, or just have your ecu tuned with the vtec engagement point such that it stays on.

Whats the stock vtec engagement point, and what is the stock h22 redline, or point you shift at?

I can tell you though, that if you put the DX/LX accord 5th gear in a H22 gearbox with a 5.2FD, your 5th gear cruising rpm would still be roughly 80~100 rpm lower than a STOCK H22 gearbox.......but 1-4 would be ferociously fast! However, if you need to downshift to 4th, you're blipping up to 6200rpms, and quickly running out of gear all over again. That's why I think the 4.64 is the best of both worlds for high speed and quick acceleration.

[jamaicancb3]

I don't know if you would drop out of vtec or not, but you could easily figure it out, or just have your ecu tuned with the vtec engagement point such that it stays on.

Whats the stock vtec engagement point, and what is the stock h22 redline, or point you shift at?

I can tell you though, that if you put the DX/LX accord 5th gear in a H22 gearbox with a 5.2FD, your 5th gear cruising rpm would still be roughly 80~100 rpm lower than a STOCK H22 gearbox.......but 1-4 would be ferociously fast! However, if you need to downshift to 4th, you're blipping up to 6200rpms, and quickly running out of gear all over again. That's why I think the 4.64 is the best of both worlds for high speed and quick acceleration.

Point taken. well i recon the thing is, is that when u down shift despite having revs so high (6200 you say?), you woud be in the power with only about roughly 1000rpms left. Second thing is, the only time person really downshift where rpms would shoot up so much is when trying to slow down really quickly or racing.

I copied this from Mfactory's website to show specs

Vehicle: USDM 92-96 Prelude VTEC
_________________________________
Gear Ratio____Peak Engine Tq_____Est._____Gain______Cruising (5th Gear)

OEM 4.266 F.D____158lbft______158lbft____0%________70mph @ 3500rpm
MFactory 4.64 F.D_158lbft______172lbft____9%________70mph @ 3900rpm
MFactory 5.15 F.D_158lbft______191lbft____21%_______70mph @ 4300rpm