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***no, your shaking is not related to your alignment in any way (and other shit)***

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    ***no, your shaking is not related to your alignment in any way (and other shit)***

    first off, i have a few years of experience aligning cars.....everything from festivas to $200,000 porsches...my dad taught me a lot and was ranked #1 and #2 for 7 straight years by Goodyear, Inc for his alignment skills and went out as the #1 alignment tech in the USA when he opened his own business in 1993.......the same basic principles apply to all cars, the only differing factors are:

    1) customer's preference
    2) type of settings you can alter with or without aftermarket help
    3) the amount of alteration

    now, people seem to think that a shaking steering wheel means you have bad alignment settings, but that is VERY WRONG....shaking is usually related to tires or rotors.......theoretically, if you had every part of your front end in horrible shape, it could possibly let your wheel skip down the road in a near sideways position, but thing is, it would have broken something far before this could ever occur.....so no, your bad alignment isn't causing your car or steering wheel to shake.......it CAN cause your tires to wear incorrectly, and then force the belts inside to break/seperate and in turn your tire will cause the shaking.......sometimes your cv shafts can warp or wear funny, and you may get shaking ONLY during acceleration....if it's the cv joints, it will stop when you let off the gas

    or if you only get shaking when you hit the brakes, then that is your rotors...they are warped......brakes get hot, they then will warp the rotors and make it a bit wavy, and that will cause the shaking during stopping

    tires are USUALLY the reason your car is shaking and even pulling......some tires are simply made differently, even from the same batch......some are wound slightly tighter, have less rolling resistance and will cause your car to want to pull toward the other side.......if you have one foot on ice and the other on dry pavement, which is gonna slide further when you get a running go and stop? your "icy foot" will wanna keep going; less resistance but your "dry pavement" foot will wanna stop and you'll twist around....same principle here....one wants to roll faster and the result is the pull.....

    a pull can also be caused by a tire that was worn incorrectly, seperated the belts and unnaturally shifted causing more/less friction.......this can be caused by bad alignment settings......wear forces the tire to change and you get the pull.....fixing the alignment will NOT fix the tire though.....the damage is done and you'll need new tires to totally fix it, or maybe some creative placement and air pressure tricks (they like to pop after they've seperated and worn some)

    brakes can also cause a pull, if one caliper is sticking, then it will wanna pull to the side that is tighter......they can stick open or closed......the way to tell this is to simply drive about 15mph and note the pull you're getting, then apply the brakes like you would normally (not hard) and see if anything changes.....if it pulls harder to that side, then the caliper on the OTHER side is probably stuck OPEN and isn't doing anything...if it gets better, then you have a caliper sticking closed on the side it's pulling to......every once in a while, your brake line will be stopped up and you can just pull the line from the caliper and see if the friction it has on the wheel changes......if it does, then it's the line, if it doesn't, it's the caliper......usually the caliper though unless the car is old or in bad shape

    TOE

    toe is the distance from the imaginary point on the FRONT of your tire to the FRONT of the OTHER tire on the same axle (both front or both back, whatever you're measuring)..........negative toe means these points are closer together, pointed toward one another.....positive toe means they're pointing away from each other.......most fwd cars benefit from zero to + 1/8" of toe (sometimes measured in degress, our machine used inches).....a race car may want more positive or negative toe depending on camber, caster, tires, track style, etc.....just varies......if you have negative camber to help in cornering, then you'd probably want more positive toe to counter (as much as possible) the wear that the negative camber would force on your tires......you'd still get accelerated wear to an extent, but it would be more even.......it would also keep as much rubber on the ground as possible in the process...

    now, toe will naturally be divided perfectly in half by the force of friction while going down the road......you can't have 1/4" on one side and 1/2" on the other when going down the road.....it will force the wheels to mirror each other....toe can't cause a pull.......it can cause your steering wheel to be off....if the alignment tech doesn't lock the steering wheel in the straight position, adjust one wheel straight then base the total off of that, then who knows.....most don't give a shit and barely know what the fuck they're doing, ESPECIALLY at larger stores....the best alignment techs are USUALLY at smaller stores where they're more personal and the reputation matters....since most know shit about alignments, they can get away with it......a crooked steering wheel means nothing other than your wheels aren't straight when your steering wheel is........

    CAMBER

    camber is the distance from the imaginary point on the TOP of your tire to the top of the other tire (same axle).......if they're closer together then it's negative camber (they lean IN at the top) and if they're further apart, it's positive (lean OUT at the top).......if you wanna hang a curve, then you want negative camber.......negative camber will also cause wear on the inner part of your tire after so much of it, but again, certain toe settings can HELP even it all out.....-2 degrees will cause wear and will still be very driveable, but will really help cornering......most fwd cars have around +.3-+.7 degrees of camber and around zero inches of toe.....just a safe setting for smaller, fwd cars with small tires meant to get from point a to point b and get optimal gas mileage......when you lower a car, you get negative camber that you will wanna fix if you go low enough.....our cars need camber kits to adjust camber on the front (minimal adjustment by shimming on the back)......this is wear most pulling comes from......if one side is around .8 degrees different than the other, then you can get a pull to the more negative side......when the average person sits in their car and no one else is in it, then they can add .2 degrees to the passenger side and make the driver's side .2 degrees more negative....a good tech will compensate for this.....

    caster is just the relation of your wheel to your axle......if your wheel is forced more toward the front of the vehicle, then you have positive caster and more toward the rear, negative caster...usually, you'll notice a change in caster after a wreck or if one wheel hits a curb or something.....USUALLY means something is bent........it too can cause a pull toward the side that is further back.....

    there are other small factors, but the above are the main ones and you'll rarely hear "you need to adjust your caster" because MOST cars simply offer no adjustment.....

    it's recommended to check your alignment every 6 months....most cars are out.....there is a range for each car that is good.....no one set of numbers.....

    maybe this will clear some things up
    Last edited by rickyduckworth; 03-16-2006, 12:06 AM.

    #2
    Nice write up... Why do you have 7 posts?

    Comment


      #3
      thanks for a very educational post maybe it could be a sticky?? nice job Ricky!

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by wrichards2005
        Nice write up... Why do you have 7 posts?
        i reset them

        gonna try and start over, be a bit nicer, not worry with the pointless OT shit, and help as many as i can......

        Comment


          #5
          The steering wheel shaking when you hit the brakes is very rarely brakes warping. Its usually uneven brake pad wear. Its very hard to warp rotors.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by mach_me
            The steering wheel shaking when you hit the brakes is very rarely brakes warping. Its usually uneven brake pad wear. Its very hard to warp rotors.

            not true........

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Maple50175
              not true........
              Eh, guess the guys at StopTech dont know what they are talking about then.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by mach_me
                Eh, guess the guys at StopTech dont know what they are talking about then.
                I agree.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I don't see how a bad alignment would cause shaking either. It's pretty simple. Alignments hold the wheel one way...there's no alignment setting that would make your car wobbly. There's no alignment that will do that...the suspension is just not designed that way. I've experienced a wide range of vibrations, and here's my synopsis on everything:

                  Vibrations only on acceleration: probably axle/drivetrain related
                  Vibrations only on coasting: probably an unbalanced wheel or loose lugnut
                  Vibrations only on braking: probably rotor related, loose caliper
                  Vibrations on braking+coasting: almost definitely an unbalanced wheel

                  I need a new axle right now...high speed acceleration is the worst.


                  Originally posted by lordoja
                  im with you on that one bro! aint nothing beat free food and drinks any day of the week, even if its at a funeral

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Maple50175
                    not true........
                    x2 i have warped 3 pairs of rotors and have changed pads on them to no help. makes no sense to be pads... and as you can see its easy the warp rotors if your hard enough on the brakes

                    Comment


                      #11
                      caster is just the relation of your wheel to your axle......if your wheel is forced more toward the front of the vehicle, then you have positive caster and more toward the rear, negative caster...usually, you'll notice a change in caster after a wreck or if one wheel hits a curb or something.....USUALLY means something is bent........it too can cause a pull toward the side that is further back.....






                      Well I think I know what you were getting at here but I'll help clarify a bit

                      Caster
                      Caster is the degree your tire's leaning towards the front or rear of the car This doesn't always mean an accident an easy way to imagine caster is to place your hand with fingers straight up in front of you profile wise like this | then lean your fingers toward what would be the front of the car like this \ that would be positive camber and a large majority of race cars as you say run with a degree to 1.5 degrees of positive caster this makes less resistance while you are moving foward. Now if you do the opposite with your hand you'll see Negative / Which is horrible for tire wear, gas mileage and your pocket book since your tires are virtually fighting the forward movement of the vehicle.

                      Last I would have to disagree with you, I know your with good intentions your left out a few things in your alignment explanation that I'll attempt to cover.

                      Thrust Angle

                      Thrust angle is the relation to the imaginary line of your front wheel axis line and rear wheels axis line ( EDIT: couldn't get my little drawing to show it right ) I hope that came out alright lol Either way typically what you will notice mostly from a poorly adjusted or out of adjustment thrust angle is a thing called dog tracking, this is easily visual if you have ever seen a vehicle in front of you that was heading straight yet you could see some of the side of the vehicle. (I.E. the rear thrust angle is to the left (negative) or to the right (positive)


                      That was a quick little explanation of Caster and camber. Now the reason I disgree with you is this, If you vehicles toe on one side is more than 1.5 degrees different than it's opposite side your tire will literally move with a slight hoping motion, this is seen as Cupping on tires. This slight hopping motion will cause a vibration to travel through your steering rack, up the steering shaft and up to your steering wheel. You'll notice this more often when you take a turn and hear that lovely squeling sound more than the vibration more than likely. Now what I believe you were describing in your caster section sounded more like Front thrust than caster, and what you described a tire being further back on the axis line than it's opposite will Cause a vibration in the steering will it will cause something called catch up if it is severe enough. The wheel that is further back on the axis line's cv shaft on every rotation will hit a point where a portion of it is perfectly aligned on the axis line this will cause a hop similiar to the poor toe adjustment only more noticeable, once again this hop sends the vibration through the steering rack, shaft and to your steering wheel. Now you may point this culrpit to the cv shaft but in actually it's the poor front thrust that is the hidden problem

                      Over all ricky excellent write up and I agree this should be stickied, too many people don't know what the hell is going on with their alignment and this would help alot
                      Last edited by 91accordwagon; 03-16-2006, 01:27 PM.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        The steering wheel shaking when you hit the brakes is very rarely brakes warping. Its usually uneven brake pad wear. Its very hard to warp rotors.
                        LOL Ya, I don't think so.....
                        1992 Accord LX - SOLD

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Go tell these guys they are wrong then
                          http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/te...e_papers.shtml

                          Taken from one of their articles-

                          "With one qualifier, presuming that the hub and wheel flange are flat and in good condition and that the wheel bolts or hat mounting hardware is in good condition, installed correctly and tightened uniformly and in the correct order to the recommended torque specification, in more than 40 years of professional racing, including the Shelby/Ford GT 40s – one of the most intense brake development program in history - I have never seen a warped brake disc. I have seen lots of cracked discs, discs that had turned into shallow cones at operating temperature because they were mounted rigidly to their attachment bells or top hats, a few where the friction surface had collapsed in the area between straight radial interior vanes, and an untold number of discs with pad material unevenly deposited on the friction surfaces - sometimes visible and more often not.

                          In fact every case of "warped brake disc" that I have investigated, whether on a racing car or a street car, has turned out to be friction pad material transferred unevenly to the surface of the disc. This uneven deposition results in thickness variation (TV) or run-out due to hot spotting that occurred at elevated temperatures."

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by mach_me
                            Go tell these guys they are wrong then
                            http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/te...e_papers.shtml

                            Taken from one of their articles-

                            "With one qualifier, presuming that the hub and wheel flange are flat and in good condition and that the wheel bolts or hat mounting hardware is in good condition, installed correctly and tightened uniformly and in the correct order to the recommended torque specification, in more than 40 years of professional racing, including the Shelby/Ford GT 40s – one of the most intense brake development program in history - I have never seen a warped brake disc. I have seen lots of cracked discs, discs that had turned into shallow cones at operating temperature because they were mounted rigidly to their attachment bells or top hats, a few where the friction surface had collapsed in the area between straight radial interior vanes, and an untold number of discs with pad material unevenly deposited on the friction surfaces - sometimes visible and more often not.

                            In fact every case of "warped brake disc" that I have investigated, whether on a racing car or a street car, has turned out to be friction pad material transferred unevenly to the surface of the disc. This uneven deposition results in thickness variation (TV) or run-out due to hot spotting that occurred at elevated temperatures."



                            THOSE PEOPLE ARE FING MORONS! lol I've been in the business for 5 years now and I've seen more warped disc then I can shake a pad at. HERE"S YOUR PROOF THAT FUCKED UP PADS WILL NOT CAUSE A SHUTTER WITH DISC AND CALIPER SET UP! ALL CALIPERS ARE SELF ADJUSTING EVERY TIME YOU PLACE YOUR DAMN FOOT ON THE PEDAL IT ADJUST THE PAD CORRECTLY TO THE CALIPER! And if that was true than thousands of shops around the world are going broke when they buy a SNAP ON Disc turners.

                            And just for measure I will snap a shot of a warped disc or to on the 28th and post them up here and on the stoptech sight. Rotor warpage happens due to heavy breaking (rotors will reach over 1k degree's during seriously heavy breaking. and not breaking them in correctly after installation.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              If they are wrong, by all means, prove them wrong. I can see how both of points could be right.

                              Comment

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