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    Article: Stiff Suspension & Different Road Conditions

    This is a really good read for those of you considering "upgrading" ur suspension. A racing coilover system might be just that, a racing coilover system. No matter how cool it looks, some suspension systems might unsuitable for streets use

    Originally Posted on www.drifting.com




    Suspension 101: Stiffer is Better?

    Text by Michael McFall, Tanabe Racing Development, USA
    Photographs by DRIFTING.com


    Car club meetings and car shows are home to a strange, if not disturbing phenomenon. Perhaps it’s a guy thing, or subconsciously the end result of an environment that constantly tells us to buy enlargement pills online for cheap. If you’ve been to one of these ‘meets’, you’ve more than likely been witness to these bizarre occurrences. A group of people standing around a car will be looking down, excitedly pushing down on something, and then one person will look up; wild eyed, and comment “hey, that’s pretty stiff!” It’s not really something you would want to hear out of context; like say, in the men’s bathroom. Now that our minds are in the right place, it’s time to tear apart this preconception many of us have about having a stiff ride.

    “So how stiff is it?” This question is akin to going to a used car lot and kicking the tire to see if it’s a good car. The question isn’t completely without merit, but it’s in the context that we find its true purpose.

    Why do people want stiff suspensions? What is it, and what does it do?


    While I can’t wholly answer why many people desire a rock-hard suspension package for a daily car, I do have a feeling it is Napoleonic in nature. People typically upgrade their suspension so their car can handle better. In The Basics - Handling section that is coming soon we will learn that loosely, handling is simply a matter of traction. (aka putting rubber to road.) Traction lets us do all sorts of fun things, on many different kinds of road surfaces. Naturally, different suspensions perform better under different conditions—lets take a general look at some different kinds of roads:



    City Streets – Constantly changing from smooth even surfaces, to bumpy an horribly uneven.

    Highways – Typically smooth and even, with an occasional bump here and there.

    Mountain Roads – Elevation changes, debris, and other road anomalies (this includes animals!)

    Raceways – Immaculately smooth and grippy tarmac, the perfect road condition!

    Let’s see how a high spring rate uber stiff suspension handles on these types of roads. (dampeners should always be mated with the spring rate, and never exceed it!)



    Putting ‘Stiff’ to the test:


    City Streets – Constantly changing from smooth even surfaces, to bumpy an horribly uneven.

    On the smooth surfaces the car will handle nice, and your tyte ryde will look pretty hot slammed with that new aero kit and blingin rims. Once you take that right turn onto a bumpy street, the ride quality can become unbearably rough as the car jostles and bounces all over the place. This can cause hernias, headaches, and possibly even a break-up with your significant other as your passengers will HATE YOU.

    On a serious note, if you have to brake hard or take a turn on a bumpy road, the springs which are meant to absorb the bump, will not perform their function and you will lose traction. This is very dangerous and can cause you to get into a serious accident.

    Highways – Typically smooth and even, with an occasional bump here and there.

    Luckily, most highways are very smooth. Occasionally you do get the occasional bump, but for the most part you will have a very smooth stable ride. You will be able to take that nice long sweeper at a nice speed and not have to sweat it.

    Conversely, if you hit that bump taking that long sweeper at a high speed, you could essentially lose [traction] and under/oversteer into the center divider, provided there is one.

    Mountain Roads – Elevation changes, debris, and other road anomalies (this includes animals!)

    Stiff suspensions and mountain roads do not mix. Take the bad situations of City and Highway and multiply it by ONE MILLION. Mountain Roads are generally not well maintained, so that 2000 dollar racing suspension is really going to work against you here. The car will be bouncing from the bumps, as the springs will not absorb them. Weight is going to be transferring all over the place, so you’re going to need as much grip as you can get.

    Braking under rough road conditions will more than likely cause an understeer condition. Barreling through a turn on a rough road will cause understeer, or oversteer. If you have to brake hard to avoid an animal and the road is rough…you can kiss your Takumi aspirations goodbye as you plow into that Initial Deer.

    Raceways
    – Immaculately smooth and grippy tarmac, the perfect road condition!

    Ahh, the raceway. If all roads could be so immaculately maintained, I would drive a racecar everyday. My daily driver is a ’92 Geo Storm, unfortunately. Anyhow, the stiff suspension really shines on the track, because ‘duh!’ that is what it was built for! A stiff suspension, with the combination of a [GOOD DRIVER] and great tires will result in amazing lap times and fun times, indeed.

    There is a limit to how stiff you can go, but on the raceway, most of us will never reach that point or would be able to afford it.



    Final Thoughts


    So the ultra stiff suspension wasn’t all that it was made out to be. It’s like that scene in “A Christmas Story” where the young hero uses his decoder ring only to find out that it was all just a scheme to drink more chocolate milk. Race suspensions do have their place on race cars, but for street cars, it is best and safer to have something a bit softer. The softer suspension will actually outperform the race suspension outside of the track, and there are plenty of options available for the discriminating driver to choose from.

    Remember, a suspension is only as good as the driver. 99% of the time, we are not driving on a track, so finding a good balance for your needs and budget is the key. The best suspension upgrade is upgrading the driver. It’s “how you use it”.


    http://tanabe-usa.com

    Last edited by lokuputha; 01-16-2008, 10:51 PM.
    DEVOTE


    __________________________________________
    FS: Lokuputha's Stuff
    "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than it is to drive a fast car slow."-The Smartest Man In The World

    #2
    I perfer road feel and comfort. I dont know if those two mix but what Im getting after is a total package. Say Im running a progresively wound spring with a drop of 1 5/8 and Blues. With some decent sidewall 15 inch tires and poly'ed mounts new bushings and a massive PROGRESS rear sway bay, coupled with Front and Rear Strut Bars. Assuuming the front end has been rebuilt what are you thoughts on this? Street / Race / 4x4 tell me something good.

    Comment


      #3
      From all the reading and research/searching I have done I think the best sport/street/comfort setup for the CB7 (and what I will eventually have) is:

      1. Complete Poly suspension bushing, or new OEM replacements (whatever prefer)
      2. Neuspeed SuperCup kit (slight height adjustment, adjustable koni yellows, and matched strut/spring rates)
      4. OEM front sway bar w/ Poly bushings & endlinks
      3. Progress rear sway bar
      4. Neuspeed front upper strut bar
      5. Rear upper strut bar, possibly braced to seatbelt bolt points.

      This complete setup comes at around $1500 including everything. You can save about $300 by not updating any bushings, but with 150,000-250,000 miles like most of our CB7's have, those suspension bushings are in desperate need of replacement.
      My Member's Ride Thread

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      Comment


        #4
        my current setup:

        -Tein H-Tech Springs
        -Tokico Blue Dampers
        -Suspension Technique F & R Sway Bars
        -16X7.5 RH Dspec 35mm offset
        -Bridgestone Potenza G009

        Review: This is a great sports setup for the street; if Honda made a CB7 Type-S, this is how they should have setup the suspension. Type-R I would expect to be a bit lower and a bit more harsh.

        The spring rate is almost perfect and the compression characteristics is like that of a Ti spring, very progressive. But I would like the initial dampening rate to be a little higher, I think Koni Yellows would do the trick. The addition of the sway bar kit really sets everything off and increases the suspension compliance. The tires are pretty matched to this setup offering a comparable level of sidewall stiffness.

        Things I still have to do:

        -Full bushings replacement - this will definitely increase both comfort and compliance.
        -Koni Yellow Adjustable Dampers
        DEVOTE


        __________________________________________
        FS: Lokuputha's Stuff
        "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than it is to drive a fast car slow."-The Smartest Man In The World

        Comment


          #5
          Lokuputha, i should have just posted this in my agrumeents in the other thread.

          A group of people standing around a car will be looking down, excitedly pushing down on something, and then one person will look up; wild eyed, and comment “hey, that’s pretty stiff!”
          ^ This is the exact thing i was trying to warn about. Working at a race track i see alot of this, Mainly because Nelson is a bit rougher than other tracks... it really holds up to the name of a "ROAD" course, because of this i have seen many people who have ran cars on perfect tracks like road atlanta that show up wondering why when they try to brake into a turn it skids and jumps out of control.

          Thank you very much for doing the research required to modify your car, definatly signs of a good engineering mind... good luck!
          Engines hate me... thats why they commit suicide

          Comment


            #6
            just to post my set up (replaced all components tie-rod... ect.)

            Tokico Illumina 5-way adjustable (1 soft, 5 stiff)
            Tokico matched springs (1.5'' drop)
            Adj front camber kit (ball joint)
            Poly radius and sway bar mount/ end links (all i felt needed stiffened)
            OEM bushings replaced everywhere else to retain some give
            Fuzion Zr-i 195/50/15.... wanted to see the diffrence in sidewall stiffness... and its WAY to stiff, next season im going with 205/50/15 to try and reduce the shock to my suspension

            - with michillen street tires on it if was smoother than stock on shock setting- 1, I got more complements on the ride quality than the drop.
            -Michillen street tires on setting 5, had to watch braking on bumps and off ramps to other highways... so i tried new tires


            - Fuzion tires (still on shock setting 1) felt "sporty" but not too stiff
            - Fuzion tires (shock setting 5 ) harsh, but safe, i dont use it on streets, i use 1-3 then change it to 5 at the track... on a surface ment for it i couldn't ask for anything better but once again, tires tend to be more important than any mod you can do to suspension...

            Racing slicks on stock car > Race suspension on stock car

            Its still the rubber that sticks, just the suspension extracts the most out of your tires





            *EDIT: from Otto's post i realized i never said how it handled. the car is pretty neutral... i could throw the ass and it would just hang out, never really effecting how i drove the car.
            Last edited by GreenMadness; 01-18-2008, 04:14 PM.
            Engines hate me... thats why they commit suicide

            Comment


              #7
              Stiffer isnt always better as mentioned. IT depends on the person and how they drive. I am running Tein Basics on 205/55/15 on my fronts. I need to redo some of my bushings. Tein Basics for me is too soft. I prefer a slightly stiffer suspension.

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              Comment


                #8
                well.. according to what i have concluded about this whole article i think the koni yellows along with neuspeed springs or teins is the best bang for the buck. that is what i plan on going with but a full out setup would be nice but that is outta my budget range and plus i don't do all that much to really enjoy that type of suspension tuning.


                Originally posted by Devergote
                A CB7 with an H22, a clean paintjob, HIDs with a projector retrofit, some nice wheels, and a mild drop on H&R Sport springs and Koni Yellow shocks... that's the perfect car. I'd be happy with that for the rest of my life.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I didn't expect them to discuss comfort, I more expected them to describe how a stiffer suspension taxes other parts of the suspension more than stock normally would. But it is true about losing control over uneven road conditions while braking or turning.

                  I'm riding on 11K F/7K R (w/ increased preload in rear) (616 lb/in 496 lb/in) D2's w/ prothane and hardrace bushings all around and stock sways front and rear. Have progress rear sway, neuspeed bar, and DC lower tie bar to put on once the weather is good again. For tires, I have 205/50/15 Kumho Ecsta SPT w/ 35mm offset MR7's.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    ^^ those are some serious spring rates. How is it on the highway?
                    DEVOTE


                    __________________________________________
                    FS: Lokuputha's Stuff
                    "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than it is to drive a fast car slow."-The Smartest Man In The World

                    Comment


                      #11
                      10k F/8k R for me, I think its as stiff as I'd go, at least for DD. I think something like Granite's would be better, as I feel the front is a tad soft and the rear is a tad stiff. I find a bit more preload and weight in the rear helps.
                      I too was concerned with the high spring rate for adverse roads and such, but after a year of it settling and fine tuning, things seem pretty good, even on bumpy roads. Fire pressure has really been the most important factor for me. I think adding a rear sway bar with stiff bushings would even it out, as it does have a bit of oversteer.
                      Opal Metallic Green '92 LX 2dr manual, 181k miles, '94 prelude VTEC wheels for summer (steelies with snow tires for winter), Omni-power struts/springs, and other junk

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I am going to be upgrading my suspension system this summer and I don't know if to go with higher rate springs....

                        I really enjoy how the car wallows with the soft Tein H-Tech springs; it gives the ride some character.

                        Anyways, I think the soft springs, sway bars, and Koni Yellows will be a good match.
                        If I need the car to handle a little better, I think I'll just reduce weight. Rear seats, CF parts, AC delete...so on.

                        Light weight is its own reward in a car...I've been driving around a 2000lb Toyota Tercel for winter and that thing is so fun to drive, not to mention very comfortable.
                        Last edited by lokuputha; 02-01-2008, 12:59 AM.
                        DEVOTE


                        __________________________________________
                        FS: Lokuputha's Stuff
                        "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than it is to drive a fast car slow."-The Smartest Man In The World

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by NAiL05
                          Stiffer isnt always better as mentioned. IT depends on the person and how they drive. I am running Tein Basics on 205/55/15 on my fronts. I need to redo some of my bushings. Tein Basics for me is too soft. I prefer a slightly stiffer suspension.
                          i want the tein basics for rally racing
                          I <3 G60.

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                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by lokuputha
                            ^^ those are some serious spring rates. How is it on the highway?
                            Yeah, they're not the highest I've heard for a DD, but they're up there. Honestly, all around, the car does absolutely great, love it. About 2 years ago I rode in SoySauceCB7's 4dr w/ Tein Basics and it just felt really stock, really boring, that's when I knew I wanted something stiff. On the rough highways, it gets alittle jumpy when the dampening is on full stiff, full soft is alot more forgiving. It rides really stiff in the cold weather though, but still fine. There was this Suzuki Aerio w/ D2's on youtube and it rode exactly like my CB does over small and large bumps, but it's not there anymore!

                            I took my time and researched, but like everything (lightweight crankpullies, aggressive cams for the street, no p/s, etc) there's always 2 sides to it and you can't make a decision from your research! I'm very glad w/ my decision though.

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