H22 or turbo F22?

[mondojackal]

installed? with tranny? also...that doesn't include aftermarket parts. H22's run Very high 14's with a stock motor and tranny. if i do get to build my F22/H23(head) with the turbo...i'll atleast be in the 13's and with an Auto. it costs more than 1950 total for a swap. unless you do it your dam self. lol

its not hard to do it yourself...i have the facilities thank you...most people on here will want to do it themsleves...its worth the money saved...

[deevergote]

Doing the work yourself definitely adds to the appreciation. I didn't do my swap myself, and I still kick myself to this day! I'm doing my own turbo installation though

FWD isn't really bad for our purposes. I mean, FWD cars aren't running 5s (or 6s? I can't keep up... I know Lisa Kubo broke the 7 barrier recently) but how many of us are EVER expecting to go that fast? FWD cars can get into the 12s and 11s without too much trouble. Beyond that, a Honda isn't all that streetable anyway! The biggest problems with FWD are traction and the weakness of the axles/drivetrain components. Traction because of the weight transfer issue mentioned before, and component weakness because the axles have so many more jobs to do than RWD axles. A straight rod can accept more power than bendable joints. FWD is just fine for a 12 second street car.

mondojackal, what is your vision for this car? What is important to you? Is it your only car, or is it a project? What do you plan on doing with it (street, autocross, drag, solo1, etc...)? All these questions are important. Honestly, H22 and turbo F22 are a matter of preference when it comes to the 200hp range. Both are equally powerful (with the turbo having a little more potential with little money) and both are somewhat reliable (H22 depends on the quality of the motor, and the turbo depends on both the quality of your F22 and the quality of the parts/tuning.)

[85gts]

have you guys seen how much it costs to build a h22 to over 200hp plus beyond all motor? the motor is also a high compression motor...while you can boost it on the stock block...you won't get to far before you HAVE to build the bottom end.

this is my take...even on a stock block f22ax with a turbo kit can make more than a h22 for less than the swap would cost. if you have a f22 that is headed out the door..then swapping motors wouldn't be so bad ost wise but you could probably find a good condition used f22 for a lot less and still turbo it for less then the swap. PLUS...if you want to modify it more..it won't cost you an arm and a leg for f22 parts as compared to h22 parts. cam is what? 250? vs h22 cams from 450 to 1k!!!

what do you think a stock block low boost set up on a f22 can put out?
f22ax block...8.8:1 compression
turbo kit hondata'd or uber'd about 3,000 bucks
turbo cam custom ground from delta or where ever...not sure on prices..i haven't seen any on here regarding that.
ported a1, a4 mani or a6(for boost i hear the a1, or a4 ported would be better than the stock a6)
boosting 6-8psi.

now i saw a video of an auto cb7 putting around 188whp @ only 8psi. not sure of what mods he had, but i'm pretty sure he didn't have a turbo cam. now a manual would probably put out a lot closer to 200 or more. now see that is already more than a h22. i don't consider the full exhaust and what not because everyone will put that on anyways...so i don't add that to the cost of swap vs turbo. i don't consider clutch either... it takes a lot of money just to get a h22 to above 200whp. now swap a head on the f22 with a h23 with turbo cams and see what you put out. even with the low boost level it will still make a huge difference because of the flow of the head. probably about 220-240whp. so i don't know...it's all really personal preference.

[mondojackal]

Doing the work yourself definitely adds to the appreciation. I didn't do my swap myself, and I still kick myself to this day! I'm doing my own turbo installation though

FWD isn't really bad for our purposes. I mean, FWD cars aren't running 5s (or 6s? I can't keep up... I know Lisa Kubo broke the 7 barrier recently) but how many of us are EVER expecting to go that fast? FWD cars can get into the 12s and 11s without too much trouble. Beyond that, a Honda isn't all that streetable anyway! The biggest problems with FWD are traction and the weakness of the axles/drivetrain components. Traction because of the weight transfer issue mentioned before, and component weakness because the axles have so many more jobs to do than RWD axles. A straight rod can accept more power than bendable joints. FWD is just fine for a 12 second street car.

mondojackal, what is your vision for this car? What is important to you? Is it your only car, or is it a project? What do you plan on doing with it (street, autocross, drag, solo1, etc...)? All these questions are important. Honestly, H22 and turbo F22 are a matter of preference when it comes to the 200hp range. Both are equally powerful (with the turbo having a little more potential with little money) and both are somewhat reliable (H22 depends on the quality of the motor, and the turbo depends on both the quality of your F22 and the quality of the parts/tuning.)

well mike, it is my daily driver, and i am just looking for more power in general, and i want it to be more fun to drive...i like the way it drives now, and i think that i could even drive it with a stock H22 in it, or maybe H22+I/H/E..dont matter to me...i just want more power...and a less regular car..its a street car, but im going to college soon, and i need a reliable car that i can travel back and forth every month or so...i dont wanna blow my F22 in between home and college..

[85gts]

the only reason you would blow your f22 is if you get overzealous with the power you have and HAMMER it all the way back home. other than that it would be a reliable power source.

[MRX]

i hate this discussion.Turbo f22 vs H22 blah blah blah...i could swear Jesus brought this up at The Last Supper.

[mondojackal]

i hate this discussion.Turbo f22 vs H22 blah blah blah...i could swear Jesus brought this up at The Last Supper.

well, i think its productive, and it shows all aspects of what people think if they are so inclinced to reply..

[SoySauceCb7]

its all about balance

[85gts]

i don't think anyone has disproved my arguments yet.

[MRX]

i don't think anyone has disproved my arguments yet.

cliffs? I'll see what i can do if you shorten them lol

[JaiBeezy DnB]

My thought is frankestein like homeboy said above in the long thread. keep the f22 get a h23 a head and turbo. BEST OF ALL WORLDS MUAHAHAHA cough. yeah little caried away. If i had the resources and the knowledge thats what i would do.

[85gts]

cliffs? lol ok mrx i'll do my best so you can rebut my reasoning for saying f22 turbo
it's a little in this polls question because he specifically says rebuild old block.

cost per hp gained and reliability
for only about 1000 dollars more you can end up with more than 100hp over a stock h22 swap...mind you these would be shop prices and not DIY'ers, and it would be a built bottom end. but even saving 2000 on the total cost of having a forged bottom end f22...what could you do to a h22 for only 2000. that's not enough to build AND turbo it.
Cost of aftermarket for f22 or even a f22/h23 hybrid as compared to a h22
easy to find old f22 blocks. not as many h22's. and f22's are cheaper.

[MRX]

cost per hp gained and reliability
for only about 1000 dollars more you can end up with more than 100hp over a stock h22 swap...mind you these would be shop prices and not DIY'ers, and it would be a built bottom end.

Not true, it usually costs around $1000 to get even the lowest of turbo kits together. Most if not all of the parts will be used and the turbo will probably be close to 10-15 years old meaning the seals could go at any point in time. And getting 100hp over a stock h22 will not cost just $1000. Speaking in whp we'll give the h22 170whp with no mods, There are only about 2 turbo f22's on this board that make 100hp over that number and both setups cost alot more than $1000. And a shop would usually charge $500-750 for installation.

Cost per hp is negliable seeing as its too easy to make power with a turbo and the fact that it takes less power for an NA car to run with a turbo car...to be continued.

[85gts]

i think you might have misread or misinterpreted...in my previous posts i put up different costs for building a turbo f22 and a h22 swap.

it would cost about 3500 to swap in a h22.
it would cost me about 4500 to have a built f22 with a turbo kit(new) and hondata'd. so a built f22 can handle the power reliably...would cost about 1200-1500. ie..bearings, forged rods, pistons, rings...etc.
my custom turbo kit i priced at a local performance shop hondata'd is 3000.
so...for only 1000 more than it would cost me to do the h22 swap i would be putting out atleast 100 more hp.
but honestly since my motor is only 78k on it. i could turbo the stock bottom end with the 3000 turbo kit...cheaper i think if i uber it...or luckily it comes in a package deal for the turbo kit to have the hondata. safely boost 8psi and still put out more than a h22 for less. eventually swap a h23 head...without even upping the boost will get me more power...tuned of course. turbo cams for the h23 head...even more...still on only 8psi. and i could do this all slowly as i wanted to.

lets not get into an argument over n/a vs turbo...or f/i because yes it is easier to get more hp out of f/i, but that is what this poll is really about. what's more cost effective...a turbo f22 or n/a h22.

[deevergote]

An H22 swap can cost about $1800 if you just get the longblock (and that's from one of the more expensive and reputable importers.) With the transmission, add a few hundred more. I paid $2400 for my whole swap, and I got lots of unnecessary parts.

My only argument for the H22 is this: With the stock H22, you're running a STOCK motor. As it was intended from the factory. Therefore, it should last as long as the motor you replace (and since it'll probably be newer, such as my motor from 1994, it should have fewer miles on it). A 75 horsepower gain while retaining all stock reliability is important to some.
When you add a turbo system, you're introducing something that the motor and all the components were not designed for. Even when you build, you still have a lot more breakable parts under your hood. If you want to push your F22 to the limit, then low silicon pistons would be necessary... considering the expansion rate of the piston material, and the loose clearances necessary to run them, the wear rate would be greatly accelerated over stock pistons.

With a Honda motor, turbo involves a good deal of compromise. A well designed system can be cheaper than a swap, and may still retain a good deal of reliability (Accord R33 and MRX are prime examples there). Still... the extra torque loads of turbo will eat a stock clutch, and can break axles. I know for a fact that the clutch that I'm just now replacing on my H22 is original.


It's been said... this is a pointless argument, really. Both setups have potential. Turbo DOES have more potential than an NA swap in the long run, but the more power you make, the more costs and sacrifices are involved. I'm building an NA H22 AND a turbo F22, so I'm not really saying which is better! I'm a fan of both! I don't expect my F22 setup to last as long though... (also making plans for a frankenstein on boost when the F22 goes... or reaches it's comfortable limit).


85gts, I hope you aren't taking offense. I actually appreciate the discussion! This is a tired subject, but sometimes it's good to go over things... We're both making good points, and such points SHOULD be taken into consideration by those who are trying to make up their minds!