balance shaft belt delete

[Shadow1]

motha %&$in word!!! lol.



if your going to modify your car your going to make it less reliable. theres no stoping that man. if it aint OEM then dont plan on it being more reliable.

[owequitit]

heres a question...

why would you delete what Honda blueprinted and researched before building the engine??

thats just making the engine LESS reliable! or causing problems down the road!

I dunno...me personally..I wouldn't take the balanceshaft belt off it if you're using it for a daily driver!

if thats your daily driver....dont alter it to where it makes it LESS reliable!

if however...you do have another CB for a toy...do the experimenting on that "TOY" rather to your everyday transporter!


us wrench vets may be smart and know what we are doing..but are we really smarter than the Honda engineers? NO!

the balance shaft and belt is there for a reason.....and a GOOD REASON.

I wouldn't tamper with it. instead...replace the seals and re-enforce it with either that retainer or some good ol' JB weld tabs..( 4 small tabs keep the seal from walking out)

*** personal experience and work!

Here is an even better question for you.

Why did Honda put them on in the first place?

Why did the F and H series have them, and not the ESx, AXX, DXX, BXX etc not have them?

If they are so important for reliability, why did the ITR not have them, even though it's redline was well north of 8K, which oh by the way is even beyond the rev limit of an H22?

The answer is this. It makes the engine feel smoother. The "second order" vibration (the cause occurs twice for every revolution of the crank) they speak of is that little vibrating sander texture you feel in a steering wheel. Honda can't be considered ultra refined if they have this texture, so they put in balance shafts to cancel out the second order vibration. The shafts do not serve a structural purpose, they do not serve a reliability purpose, they do not serve a safety purpose. They merely make the engine "feel" smoother, so that granny doesn't know it is a 4 cylinder. The larger the 4 cylinder, the more obvious these vibrations are. The B and D series didn't have them, because they didn't need them to feel smooth. An H22 or an F22 is substantially larger, and has much greater side loads.

In fact, since they also use bearings and lubrication, you MIGHT be able to make a case that they reduce reliability. Why? Since they have to cancel a force twice per engine revolution, they spin at 2x crank speed, which in an H22, means they are spinning at about 16,000 RPM at redline.

This is much the same reason GM and many others put balance shafts in 90* V6's like the 3800. 90* V6's are inherently unbalanced. And yet the J series which is smooth as butter, has none. Why? Because at 60* the natural rotating assembly loads that cause this vibration are cancelled out naturally within the reciprocating assembly, so there is no need to cancel unwanted vibrations. Just like a straight 6. Or an H4.

P.S. this is all covered in the technical manual published by Honda concerning the design changes for the 1990 Accord. They go into thrust loads on the bottom end etc. The balance shafts do not cancel any of the loads on the rotating assembly, they merely create an opposite force so that you don't feel them. Nothing more, nothing less. It was an NVH issue, and nothing more. Not every engineering decision is made from the standpoint of longevity. If that were the case, Honda wouldn't use cast pistons and open decks.

Also, it should be noted that dyno results show about a 3WHP increase in the top end of an H22 with these disconnected.

It should also be mentioned that such things as bad motor mounts, and a poor valve adjustment (or valves that need adjusted) will make a far greater impact on the perceived smoothness of the car, the balance shafts will.

[Shadow1]

thanx for clearing that up man. i always thought that the B series motors all had them. ESPECIALLY since they rev way past our F series and the H series. but i never did see them when i looked at a B series tho. i also thought that the balance shaft belts ran stuff like the oil pump and the water pump.

[prNonVtec4u]

i just left mine off last time i did t-belt/water pump, no problems to date

[SN2BH22CB7]

Here is an even better question for you.

Why did Honda put them on in the first place?

Why did the F and H series have them, and not the ESx, AXX, DXX, BXX etc not have them?

If they are so important for reliability, why did the ITR not have them, even though it's redline was well north of 8K, which oh by the way is even beyond the rev limit of an H22?

The answer is this. It makes the engine feel smoother. The "second order" vibration (the cause occurs twice for every revolution of the crank) they speak of is that little vibrating sander texture you feel in a steering wheel. Honda can't be considered ultra refined if they have this texture, so they put in balance shafts to cancel out the second order vibration. The shafts do not serve a structural purpose, they do not serve a reliability purpose, they do not serve a safety purpose. They merely make the engine "feel" smoother, so that granny doesn't know it is a 4 cylinder. The larger the 4 cylinder, the more obvious these vibrations are. The B and D series didn't have them, because they didn't need them to feel smooth. An H22 or an F22 is substantially larger, and has much greater side loads.

In fact, since they also use bearings and lubrication, you MIGHT be able to make a case that they reduce reliability. Why? Since they have to cancel a force twice per engine revolution, they spin at 2x crank speed, which in an H22, means they are spinning at about 16,000 RPM at redline.

This is much the same reason GM and many others put balance shafts in 90* V6's like the 3800. 90* V6's are inherently unbalanced. And yet the J series which is smooth as butter, has none. Why? Because at 60* the natural rotating assembly loads that cause this vibration are cancelled out naturally within the reciprocating assembly, so there is no need to cancel unwanted vibrations. Just like a straight 6. Or an H4.

P.S. this is all covered in the technical manual published by Honda concerning the design changes for the 1990 Accord. They go into thrust loads on the bottom end etc. The balance shafts do not cancel any of the loads on the rotating assembly, they merely create an opposite force so that you don't feel them. Nothing more, nothing less. It was an NVH issue, and nothing more. Not every engineering decision is made from the standpoint of longevity. If that were the case, Honda wouldn't use cast pistons and open decks.

Also, it should be noted that dyno results show about a 3WHP increase in the top end of an H22 with these disconnected.

It should also be mentioned that such things as bad motor mounts, and a poor valve adjustment (or valves that need adjusted) will make a far greater impact on the perceived smoothness of the car, the balance shafts will.

I was just clearly stating...if Honda themselves put them there....why take and not use them!

thats what I was saying!

just do the regular maintainence ( replace seals and include the retainers )..

simple!

but you explained it well.....im still sticking to my own thoughts!

its still there for a that sole reason...( to calm the vibrations )

to each their own!



each engine honda produces is different in their own way! ( B / F / H / J / D / ) they all have their characteristics that tears them apart from each other.

I wouldn't alter something thats supposed to be there.

ME PERSONALLY! ( Not speaking for others )


If its not broken...dont fix it!

you see rope...you pull rope...rope hauls bush...

meaning...if its not necessary..dont do it!

[SN2BH22CB7]

This is a completely retarded statement.

Putting on an intake and an aftermarket air filter makes your car less reliable.

Why would you change that if the engineers at Honda are so smart

Why would you change ANYTHING on our cars that's not OEM?

Balance shafts are nothing more than for comfort.

fuck em.

Like I said.......you may be smart....but dont call my statement retarded...

I said that for a reason....why would you alter something that Honda put there...if its for comfort....why mess with it??

thats my arguement! ( im speaking for myself )...not anyone else!

so please dont confuse that either.

OWEQUITIT...explained it extremely well...but seriously..d112crzy do you consider yourself SMARTER than the engineers that created these vehicles...if you are...why are you NOT in the engineering company for Honda?

please dont think you're smarter than the manufacturer...they do things for a reason. some of the things they do..may seem foolish..but like OWEQUITIT...I may at times clash with him..but I deeply respect him....he knows what hes talking about...and we aren't far in age.... ( ) I admire his knowledge..but some of the reasoning....I tend to go with the company...why..its there FOR A REASON...

so I will REPEAT this again... ( IM SPEAKING FOR MYSELF )

I myself.....want comfort...I dont want CONSTANT vibration in my cabin...that would seriously irritate me.

so...I would continue to replace the balance shaft seals and put either the retainers...or dabs of JB weld to keep the seal from backing off.

( SOLID DECISION )

if I wanted constant vibrations...Id get solid engine mounts!

NOTE: there will be clashes ...WHY, because people dont want to see the reasoning behind the other person's thoughts.

thats why people here clash. they dont want to LISTEN to reasoning behind a statement or comment.

[Shadow1]

ok. we all know the shafts were put there for comfort. ok. we got that.

the main point is the balance shafts arent really needed. they're only there for comfort. d11crzy and owquitit dont repsond to his post. all its going to do is cause a flame fest and an argument. this thread isnt here to start an argument.

the answer i was looking for is there. now we can leave this here for the other people who want to know about it can view it.


END OF DISCUSSION

[owequitit]

If you want to leave them there to smooth vibration, fine. That is what they do, and that is all that they do.

It will not affect reliability whatsoever to remove the belt and run the engine. The problem is that people get confused between "balance shafts" and harmonic dampeners. If you remove the dampener on an old engine, or one that uses something similar to compensate for poor reciprocating balance, and loose tolerances, then YES you will get structural failure. The problem is that Honda engines are pretty much balanced and blueprinted from the factory, and the tolerances are so tight that there is VERY little variation from engine to engine. In fact, NASCAR racing teams have just reached STOCK Honda tolerances in the last couple seasons.

Honda rotating assemblies are pretty much balanced from the factory. There is some room for improvement, but not nearly as much as on many many other makes.

It WILL vibrate slightly more. Just a little texture in the steering wheel. Nothing more.

I don't care if anyone does or does not want to take them off. Personally, for 3WHP, it isn't worth worrying about. I left mine off because it makes the t belt job a lot harder, and the solid engine mount I put in made up for any gains in smoothness I may have felt. So to me, it was $50 cheaper, and a lot of labor easier, as well as one less thing to worry about.

But to say that Honda put them there for a reason, without understanding how or why they are there, and then claiming that it will affect reliability, is silly. The HONDA ENGINEERS that DID design the system, state explicitly that they are there to make the engine feel smoother to occupants, and nothing more. They also help the sound of the engine, and make it seem less "boomy." Of course, a short ram intake will easily offset that function too. NVH. Noise, Vibration, Harshness...

It should also be noted that it is one of the things racing teams remove first, and many of those cars see engine stresses our cars can't even imagine. With no problems.