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ENG: H23 Intake Manifold Swap (56K die!!!)

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    #76
    That is what is currently on mine. I don't know that there aren't any exceptions, but mine is identical to every other OBD-I H22 plenum I have ever seen.
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      #77
      I guess I will have to borrow a camera tonight and do a "write-up."
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        #78
        Originally posted by owequitit
        Take it in the context of the post. With the right fabrication tools/money/skills, I can fab an LS1 intake manifold to fit.

        Do you honestly believe that someone who doesn't know what a fast idle valve and an air boost valve is or does is going to do that???? Let's be realistic here.

        Also, had you interpreted the post correctly, I thought it was IMPLIED that the manifold AS IS wouldn't fit. Of course you can change/modify the flange and or ports. Is it worth the extra couple of HP? IMO no.

        Perhaps a better solution would be to just use the larger plenum SOHC VTEC F23 manifold with a larger TB. It would be a lot less fabrication, and may even produce superior results if done correctly. You could even port it or extrude hone and probably have even better results still.

        Disagree with me if you want. It isn't feasible for a beginner. I can also tell you from an airflow/aerodynamics standpoint that the port match problem is causing at the very least some high rpm issues. A little turbulence is good, but you can tell just by comparing the pic of the H23 and F22 heads, that isn't "a little."

        If you want proof, I have an aerodynamics text book for sale.
        No need to get so defensive.

        I read/interpreted the post as it was typed. You made no indication in your post about the manifold being able to fit with modification or not being able to fit without modification. If thats what you meant then thats what you should have typed. You made it seem like it wouldn't work period. I was merely letting the person know that it is possible with some work.

        Perhaps the F23 IM would be a better solution with "superior results", but can anyone say for sure or not. No. So I guess we'll just leave it at that.

        Also, you have fun with that LS1 intake manifold and selling that book

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          #79
          Originally posted by owequitit
          P.S. You have to cut/trim/hack the manifold flange area, and then cut/trim/hack the thermostat housing support. Tell me there isn't a chance of reduced durability there.
          umm... did you even look at that link I posted? Hacking the flange, no problem with the IM, just with the mounting of the thermo housing. Hacking the thermo housing, possible leaking issue. He had problems with leaking coolant. He said it was coming from the thermo housing. Do I plan to figure out a way of fixing that? yes.

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            #80
            Originally posted by TouringAccord
            just so you know. The air starting valve and fast idle thermo valve are two different parts. If you look at the beginning of this thread, the pictures are labelled to show the different parts.



            yes
            Yep, I posted in haste as I work the night shift and was very tired. I also have quite a few projects going right now as well so that is why i asked so much at once.
            I read the thread a few times but then posted to clarify
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              #81
              Originally posted by owequitit
              Take it in the context of the post. With the right fabrication tools/money/skills, I can fab an LS1 intake manifold to fit.

              Do you honestly believe that someone who doesn't know what a fast idle valve and an air boost valve is or does is going to do that???? Let's be realistic here.

              Also, had you interpreted the post correctly, I thought it was IMPLIED that the manifold AS IS wouldn't fit. Of course you can change/modify the flange and or ports. Is it worth the extra couple of HP? IMO no.

              Perhaps a better solution would be to just use the larger plenum SOHC VTEC F23 manifold with a larger TB. It would be a lot less fabrication, and may even produce superior results if done correctly. You could even port it or extrude hone and probably have even better results still.

              Disagree with me if you want. It isn't feasible for a beginner. I can also tell you from an airflow/aerodynamics standpoint that the port match problem is causing at the very least some high rpm issues. A little turbulence is good, but you can tell just by comparing the pic of the H23 and F22 heads, that isn't "a little."

              If you want proof, I have an aerodynamics text book for sale.
              Well I got over the whole right/wrong thing a long time ago.
              I know what the fast idle valve and have a basic idea of what the air boost valve does now. I simply asked where I could get those items as mine did not come with those and then I asked about if you all thought I would run into issues if I did not have the air boost valve on there.
              I've come to the conclusion before this whole ordeal that it would not be plug and play. That was implied haha
              As far as the H23 or F23 IM issue, I can get a F23 as well so I may wait a few weeks on this in order to get everything all together and then compare the two. FYI why the hell im doing this swap/troublesome ordeal is I am going turbo on the car.
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                #82
                Originally posted by TouringAccord
                umm... did you even look at that link I posted? Hacking the flange, no problem with the IM, just with the mounting of the thermo housing. Hacking the thermo housing, possible leaking issue. He had problems with leaking coolant. He said it was coming from the thermo housing. Do I plan to figure out a way of fixing that? yes.
                I guess that could be one of the joys of being able to take my time on this one.
                I mean if it came down to it I would just take my stock f22b1 manifold to a shop and have it ported and polished if that was my last option.
                I work graveyard valet so pulling about $300+ in tips a week PLUS overtime AND getting hourly too kinda helps things along haha
                Dedicated 5th Gen Accord online community

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                  #83
                  Originally posted by TouringAccord
                  umm... did you even look at that link I posted? Hacking the flange, no problem with the IM, just with the mounting of the thermo housing. Hacking the thermo housing, possible leaking issue. He had problems with leaking coolant. He said it was coming from the thermo housing. Do I plan to figure out a way of fixing that? yes.
                  Yeah, actually I read all 7 or 8 pages of the link. Every line, every post, every comment, every update.

                  I got a lot out of the thread actually. I got that he had to cut/hack the flange (when you remove that kind of material from the flange, you are hacking it). Then he had a coolant leak (which I am pretty sure does NOT increase the reliability of the car). Then he had to cut/hack the T-stat housing (if you are cutting material away from the thermostat housing support, you are NOT increasing the reliability of the car) even if you weld it, or in some way solve it (which in my opinion is a waste of time for maybe 5HP over what the F23 manifold would probably make). That doesn't even account for the fact that to get the ports/runners to interface properly, you will have to match port the head. Is there enough material to hog it out that far? A slight mismatch can be beneficial for inducing a SMALL amount of turbulence to help atomize the fuel, but as I said before, that isn't small and is probably causing some other airflow issues.

                  Bottom line, if you plan to go boost, you would be better off using the F23 manifold and having it ported for increased flow. There would be no installation issues. No reliability issues. No fabrication issues.

                  The secondary runners serve little to no benefit in a boosted application. That comes from Midnight Racer X who DOES have the dyno time to back up his claim.

                  TSM_Pikachu - I did not mean to sound condescending to you. Based on the way you were phrasing questions, it sounded as though you were relatively new to the hobby of cars. I appologize if I misinterpreted.

                  My honest opinion is that you would be better off with the F23 manifold.

                  It has a substantially larger plenum than your stock manifold, which is the most important part as far as HP related to an intake manifold is concerned.

                  Once you have an adequately sized plenum, then the runner shape/size will allow you to optimize where in the powerband you want the peak TQ/HP to occur. Adding the secondary runners simply allows less compromise because you optimize breathing effeciency at 2 engine speeds instead of 1. Again with boost, this doesn't seem to be AS critical.

                  A ported throttle body used in conjunction with the others would finish it off. It is my belief that the TB on Accords are too small, so perhaps you could have a stock one ported or enlarged first.

                  Then you don't have the headache, because everything should bolt right up OEM style, with OEM reliability.

                  Touring Accord - I understand that pretty much everybody on Accordingly Done assumes they know more than everyone else. That is why they flame everybody, and have a generally negative atmosphere. I also understand function over form, however, if you are substantially removing material without consideration of the consequences, and causing leak issues etc, all for a fairly small gain in HP, that isn't really function is it?

                  Disagree if you want. This is all EDUCATED opinion, ultimately if your car blows up, it does not affect me at all. I see cars like that Accord (in the AD thread) everyday. They bring them to me to fix because they have them so messed/hacked up, they can't figure it out. Sometimes they can be saved, and sometimes they can only be made to run for a little while longer.

                  Last edited by owequitit; 02-22-2006, 12:50 PM.
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                    #84
                    ok, well, with the addition of the turbo being thrown into the mix, I would have to agree with you from everything I've read. But up until a couple posts ago, the turbo hadn't been stated so I wasn't thinking about that.

                    Thing is, for my project, I won't be going boost and I will be staying all-motor. So I feel that the work required is benificial to me. If I'm wrong, only time will tell.

                    I agreed with you about the leaking coolant thing, I didn't deny that. But I also feel confident that I can solve that.

                    And as for the comment about AD. I think most public web forums are like that so lets not limit that comment to just AD. But thats something you should realize when going onto a web forum, it's just the internet and there are always going to be people disagreeing for whatever reason, people who are being dicks, ect. And if that comment was directed towards me directly, thats not true. I never claim to know everything. I'm on this website, and a couple others to learn and help others with what I've learned.

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                      #85
                      No offense intended. I didn't direct anything directly at you. If I had, trust me, there wouldn't be any confusion about it.

                      You are right it isn't personal, and it is no big deal. To each his own.

                      The turbo did change things slightly, but there are still a lot of issues with just plugging it on. If you hook the secondaries directly to vacuum, you pretty much negate their effect. How big of a pain is it going to be to make them work somewhat correctly? If you really want to build an all motor F22B, you should see if you can find a set of ITB's. That would be cool.

                      Also, like I said, to each his own. My friend was looking at building his F22B for NA, but once he looked into it, it was going to cost more to get H22 power out of it, than it was to buy and install an H22. The H22 thing has already been done, and I understand that, but sometimes the path less traveled is less traveled for a reason. If you are looking for some mild HP increases, the F22 will probably respond just fine. That is basically why I am fiddling with mine. I have an H22 sitting in the garage, but I am not done tinkering with the F22 yet. I haven't spent a lot of money on most of the stuff, and I have seen some pretty impressive improvement over stock. Using all OEM parts (except the exhaust).

                      About the AD comment. I did mean it directly toward that forum. In my experience they are the most unwelcoming forum and the quickest to flame out of any forum I have been on (everything from Acura to Volvo). Just like the thread you posted. Someone asked a legitimate question about the secondaries, which I understood right off, and he got flamed by like 6 people. Then he rephrased the question more clearly, and proceeded to get flamed AGAIN! I have seen more people on there get flamed by someone who didn't understand the question, then actually getting flamed because they deserved it. It's like an unwritten policy to flame first, then understand what is going on. As far as I am concerned, that is unacceptable behavior. How are people supposed to comprehend and learn if everyone just tells them they are stupid and to shut up??? Searching isn't the end all solution if you don't understand the information that is posted.
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                        #86
                        Please back to the thread topic about the H23 manifold.

                        I got some pics of the H22 plenum install last night and will try to have a DIY posted tonight. I didn't have the camera available when I put it on, so you guys will have to use some imagination. Or I could go uninstall, and then reinstall it, but I would prefer not to.
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                          #87
                          may i cut in? lol


                          which procedure should i follow to drill out the plugs that have already been previously set with the steel epoxy (or are all the H23 mani's like that from the start?)?....as opposed to the manifold seen in accordaffair's DIY where the port plugs themselves are clearly visible.



                          in other words, how do i get the plugs out cleanly as seen above? ive read this DIY many many many times, but it seems like its missing that step.



                          For the H23 Intake manifold, find a drill bit (around ľ inch sized) and drill through each of the 6 EGR ports. Itís easier to use a center punch to get started.
                          is it that simple? i dont want to push the plugs below the surface....or is that even possible? HELP!

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                            #88
                            I believe the method to remove the plugs completely like that was this one.

                            Tap into it with a drill bit, insert a screw and use a slide hammer to pull them out. Then you can tap the bosses and just put an alan key plug in there for future cleanings.
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                              #89
                              It almost looks like the h23 doesn't even use plugs, just the epoxy material. Looking at cokinuts set-by-step, I assumed he drilled his own holes, and epoxy'd them when finished.

                              on the stairs, she grabs my arm, says whats up,
                              where you been, is something wrong?
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                                #90
                                yes, I agree, we took this way off topic. I just have one last thing to clear up and thats it.

                                I do plan to make the bypass valve function correctly, I have the vacuum tank and sensor, I will just need to have the ecu chipped to run them. The motor will be dropped into a Civic hatch, so I'm not looking for huge power gains, just an all arround fun car to drive. It may be easier to make power with the H22 but I really want to make power with my F22B1 in my hatch. There is just something about the whole thing that I really like.

                                sorry again for taking this off topic.

                                I do have a couple questions though.

                                The epoxy stuff thats on top of the egr service port plugs, how hard is that stuff. I haven't started cleaning my H23 IM and was just wondering how you remove that epoxy. Do you just scrape it off with a gasket scraper or something?

                                Also, some people have mentioned tapping the service ports and using a bolt or something to plug the hole for easier cleaning. I was thinking about doing this with set screws and maybe some Honda bond on the threads to make sure it's sealed. What size tap do people usually use? And do you think the Honda bond on the threads is enough to seal the ports. I think I'll like the look of the set screw more than the look of a bolt.

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