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domesticated : 1993 Accord SE

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  • Domesticated
    replied
    After talking with the Viper Dynamics engineer, I need to revise my ride frequencies for my car and not keep the original ride ratio. I'll update later when I can find some information I need.

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  • Domesticated
    replied
    Warning: Huge generalization ahead. The ride frequency is a rough estimate of comfort. Tire and dampers also matter a lot, but the lower the ride frequency the better potential you have for ride comfort, but inherently worse handling.

    Upping the ride frequency makes the car ride much stiffer and increases harshness. It will ride much worse than stock. It will also increase steering efforts a bit. But, keeping the ride ratio as close to stock should make the car feel about as balanced as original. There are two big assumptions here, my measurements are all accurate within reason (which I believe them to be), and the original ride ratio had the balance I'm looking for. Starting at the original ride ratio will be a better starting point than picking random springs. It may not be what I want or need, but the Honda engineers did do a lot of work so I'll start there.

    I will be offloading the FnF dampers most likely. The spring balance is crazy wrong and if I assume the dampers were actually developed for those spring rates then they will also be wrong for what I need. My final coilover setup will be:

    Bilstien B6 Monotubes converted to take aparts
    Penske Valves and Pistons (I'll do my own damper tuning)
    Eibach main spring (not sure on diameter or length yet, need to talk to ground control but I'm guessing 2.5" OD and 7" length)
    Eibach Coupling Spacers
    Eibach Helper Springs (so I can retain rebound travel)
    Ground Control Sleeves

    Not sure what I'm going to do about the top mount just yet.

    I'm considering make a coilover kit tuned specifically for CB's. Choosing spring rates will be easy, but I'll need a donor car to actually do the damper tuning on for each package available.

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  • baracuda
    replied
    Originally posted by domesticated View Post
    Thanks!

    Some updates on my maths. I measured all the kinematic hard points in the suspension and updated my ride frequency calculator.

    I measured a few more parts, but the way the math works out 20lbs of added corner weight only changes the ride frequency by 0.02Hz, so I think my figures are close enough.

    By the data I have from an SPMM test my company ran when the Accord was new (data can be found in my signature) and my calculator, the stock ride frequency was 1.19 front and 1.52 rear with a ride ratio of 1.27 and spring rates of 37N/mm front and 32N/mm rear. These numbers make a ton of sense as my current prototype at work rides a lot like a stock CB and it's ride numbers are nearly identical.



    So given my vehicle weights, corner weights, tires, and springs from the FnF coilovers, my numbers are:
    Ride Data
    Tire rate--------------------- 12000 lbf/in - 2101.5 N/mm
    Front Spring Rate ------------- 670 lbf/in -- 117.3 N/mm
    Rear Spring Rate-------------- 335 lbf/in ---- 58.7 N/mm
    Effective Front Spring Rate--- 415 lbf/in ---- 72.7 N/mm
    Effective Rear Spring Rate---- 231 lbf/in ---- 40.4 N/mm
    Front Ride Rate---------------- 401 lbf/in ---- 70.2 N/mm
    Rear Ride Rate----------------- 226 lbf/in ---- 39.6 N/mm
    Front Natural Frequency------ 2.34 Hz
    Rear Natural Frequency ------ 2.19 Hz
    Ride Ratio---------------------- 0.94

    These rates are high for the weight of my car if it were a street car. They are on the low end of tuning a car for pure mechanical grip with no aid of aero for what my car used to weigh. The ride frequency drops by 0.20Hz with the stock weights. I think I'm going to multiply the original ride frequencies by 2, but keep the ride ratio the same. The ride ratio of this setup is pretty terrible, which explains why the car feels so unbalanced.

    I'm going to double check my measurements, but it looks like I'll go with the Eibach 700lb/in fronts and 650lb/in rears

    Ride Data
    Tire rate ------------------- 12000 lbf/in - 2101.5 N/mm
    Front Spring Rate ------------ 700 lbf/in -- 122.6 N/mm
    Rear Spring Rate ------------ 650 lbf/in -- 113.8 N/mm
    Effective Front Spring Rate - 434 lbf/in --- 75.9 N/mm
    Effective Rear Spring Rate --448 lbf/in --- 78.4 N/mm
    Front Ride Rate ------------- 418 lbf/in --- 73.3 N/mm
    Rear Ride Rate -------------- 432 lbf/in --- 75.6 N/mm
    Front Natural Frequency --- 2.39 Hz
    Rear Natural Frequency -----3.02 Hz
    Ride Ratio ------------------- 1.26
    I know some of these word . So what I gather is this setup for your car would make it ride almost as comfortable and true as stock while being more aggressive in handling? Are you planning on pairing the FnF shocks & sleeves with the eibach springs and do you expect any fitment issues if so? This is by far one of the most legit setups I have ever seen come through the accord tuning crowd, your education and work history put you in a very unique position. Thanks for sharing

    Leave a comment:


  • Domesticated
    replied
    Thanks!

    Some updates on my maths. I measured all the kinematic hard points in the suspension and updated my ride frequency calculator.

    I measured a few more parts, but the way the math works out 20lbs of added corner weight only changes the ride frequency by 0.02Hz, so I think my figures are close enough.

    By the data I have from an SPMM test my company ran when the Accord was new (data can be found in my signature) and my calculator, the stock ride frequency was 1.19 front and 1.52 rear with a ride ratio of 1.27 and spring rates of 37N/mm front and 32N/mm rear. These numbers make a ton of sense as my current prototype at work rides a lot like a stock CB and it's ride numbers are nearly identical.



    So given my vehicle weights, corner weights, tires, and springs from the FnF coilovers, my numbers are:
    Ride Data
    Tire rate--------------------- 12000 lbf/in - 2101.5 N/mm
    Front Spring Rate ------------- 670 lbf/in -- 117.3 N/mm
    Rear Spring Rate-------------- 335 lbf/in ---- 58.7 N/mm
    Effective Front Spring Rate--- 415 lbf/in ---- 72.7 N/mm
    Effective Rear Spring Rate---- 231 lbf/in ---- 40.4 N/mm
    Front Ride Rate---------------- 401 lbf/in ---- 70.2 N/mm
    Rear Ride Rate----------------- 226 lbf/in ---- 39.6 N/mm
    Front Natural Frequency------ 2.34 Hz
    Rear Natural Frequency ------ 2.19 Hz
    Ride Ratio---------------------- 0.94

    These rates are high for the weight of my car if it were a street car. They are on the low end of tuning a car for pure mechanical grip with no aid of aero for what my car used to weigh. The ride frequency drops by 0.20Hz with the stock weights. I think I'm going to multiply the original ride frequencies by 2, but keep the ride ratio the same. The ride ratio of this setup is pretty terrible, which explains why the car feels so unbalanced.

    I'm going to double check my measurements, but it looks like I'll go with the Eibach 700lb/in fronts and 650lb/in rears

    Ride Data
    Tire rate ------------------- 12000 lbf/in - 2101.5 N/mm
    Front Spring Rate ------------ 700 lbf/in -- 122.6 N/mm
    Rear Spring Rate ------------ 650 lbf/in -- 113.8 N/mm
    Effective Front Spring Rate - 434 lbf/in --- 75.9 N/mm
    Effective Rear Spring Rate --448 lbf/in --- 78.4 N/mm
    Front Ride Rate ------------- 418 lbf/in --- 73.3 N/mm
    Rear Ride Rate -------------- 432 lbf/in --- 75.6 N/mm
    Front Natural Frequency --- 2.39 Hz
    Rear Natural Frequency -----3.02 Hz
    Ride Ratio ------------------- 1.26

    Leave a comment:


  • Tishock
    replied
    Originally posted by domesticated View Post
    Yes the red ones. Also the axles! The coil overs are currently FnF and the rear lowers are FFC (I've actually seen the weights of those posted somewhere).


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  • Domesticated
    replied

    Leave a comment:


  • Domesticated
    replied
    My current weight is

    773 749 60.2%
    515 492 39.8%
    50.9% 49.1% 2529

    I still have 50lbs in rear door windows and a whole bunch of sound insulation. Bit that's 426lbs dropped.

    Leave a comment:


  • Domesticated
    replied
    I borrowed a set of scales two years ago before I stripped the car and it weighed 2955. The distribution is somewhere on a previous post in this thread, possibly September of 2014.

    I have data from where a CB was measured by my work 25 years ago. Don't remember the model, but it had 14s and no rear bar and it weighed 2877 completely stock.

    Leave a comment:


  • baracuda
    replied
    Originally posted by domesticated View Post
    Scales are here, I don't have time to measure the car tonight, hopefully tomorrow. Really curious to see where my weight is currently at. Started at 2955 with full interior. Way heavier than I expected lol. I figure I still have another 100lbs I can take out. (rear door glass and motors, a lot of sound insulation, and swapping out carbon components)
    I'm curious to see what weight distribution comes in at, 2955 does seem up there since Wikipedia has it set at ~2700lbs. I wonder if that weight is official from Honda(as everyone claims the coupe weigh more then the sedans.), or if we can find what the official claimed curb weight from Honda when it went on sale.

    Leave a comment:


  • Domesticated
    replied
    Scales are here, I don't have time to measure the car tonight, hopefully tomorrow. Really curious to see where my weight is currently at. Started at 2955 with full interior. Way heavier than I expected lol. I figure I still have another 100lbs I can take out. (rear door glass and motors, a lot of sound insulation, and swapping out carbon components)

    Leave a comment:


  • Domesticated
    replied
    I'm looking for a functional baffled catch can for around 100 or less, any recommendations?

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  • Raf99
    replied
    Originally posted by domesticated View Post
    Got the new base map. Works pretty good, but past 3k and mild engine load she needs a lot of work. I did about 20 minutes of driving to get some rough numbers. Gonna update the fuel map tonight and then break the engine in this week hopefully and get some tuning done.
    I'm jealous. I've always wanted to learn how to do what you are doing right now...

    Leave a comment:


  • baracuda
    replied
    Originally posted by domesticated View Post
    Got the new base map. Works pretty good, but past 3k and mild engine load she needs a lot of work. I did about 20 minutes of driving to get some rough numbers. Gonna update the fuel map tonight and then break the engine in this week hopefully and get some tuning done.
    I would also make sure your not having some sort of spark/grounding issue. Glad to see you back at it better then ever, look forward to more updates.

    Leave a comment:


  • Domesticated
    replied
    Got the new base map. Works pretty good, but past 3k and mild engine load she needs a lot of work. I did about 20 minutes of driving to get some rough numbers. Gonna update the fuel map tonight and then break the engine in this week hopefully and get some tuning done.

    Leave a comment:


  • Domesticated
    replied
    Yes the red ones. Also the axles! The coil overs are currently FnF and the rear lowers are FFC (I've actually seen the weights of those posted somewhere).

    Leave a comment:

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