fleetw00d : 1990 Accord LX

[Fleetw00d]

resistance is one thing, not getting enough power through is another. It sounds like you are not getting enough power to the coil.

New coil did the trick. Started right up, seems to run fine. Just a little oscillation at idle. I will probably still go back through and double check compression/leakage.

Aug. 17, 2019: Connector shells (gray instead of turquoise) arrived today; repaired the one to the high temperature switch at the head outlet.

20190817_185206 by Paul Kemme, on Flickr

[Raf99]

I understand- I'm working the electrical side first, then I'll worry about the compression. The fact that I get a proper alternating signal at the coil ground indicates that everything up to that point is working correctly. Even the spark out of the coil (although it looks weak), indicates that things are working up to that point - it just isn't getting to the plugs even though the resistance through the cap and rotor measures good (less than an ohm).

resistance is one thing, not getting enough power through is another. It sounds like you are not getting enough power to the coil.

[Fleetw00d]

Spark is an electrical thing....

How's your electrical things?

I understand- I'm working the electrical side first, then I'll worry about the compression. The fact that I get a proper alternating signal at the coil ground indicates that everything up to that point is working correctly. Even the spark out of the coil (although it looks weak), indicates that things are working up to that point - it just isn't getting to the plugs even though the resistance through the cap and rotor measures good (less than an ohm).

[Raf99]

Spark is an electrical thing....

How's your electrical things?

[Fleetw00d]

So your getting no spark all together? Also have you done a valve adjustment yet? just to confirm your valves are closing completely when they need to I would check the valve lash.

Are you testing for spark at the spark plug? If your not getting spark at the plug check the coil with a test light. Hold the test light a half an inch from the coil(cap off) and have someone try to start and you should see if arc.


This is my video I go to every time I have a no start. He does a great job walking you down the chain.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9K78XIhhjAQ


I have had experience where ICMs have gone out for no reason or warning and I have gone through 2-3 until I had a good one. I always grab these from the junkyard.

Hopefully that video helps Paul.
But I wonder if the shock wave from the belt snapping and the piston to valve collision could have shocked the ignition system and maybe caused a component to fail. 8 valves is a good amount of bent valves.

I don’t think you bent any valves putting the head on and the shop should have given you the head set back to TDC.

Low compression on one (heck, any) cylinder won't affect whether the ignition system (I know you know that), so for the moment I'm concentrating on getting it to fire. The shop completely assembled the head, including setting valve lash - I haven't rechecked it. I forgot to take him new spark plug tube seals, so he reused the old ones. Against my own advice, I removed the rocker assembly without backing off the valve adjustments to install new seals; then reinstalled the rocker assembly using OEM torque specs.

No spark whatsoever. Working by myself mostly, so I put my timing light on #1 spark plug wire and taped the trigger so I can watch from the driver seat. Not even random flashes and no indication of random firing from the engine. I do have fuel in the rail and smell fuel at the muffler exit after prolonged cranking.

It is an internal coil distributor (new from Honda a few years ago); resistances through the coil check out according to the service manual. I'll figure out a way to check it for spark.

Is there a way to check the sensors (TDC, etc.) within the distributor?

More today:

Grumpy, thanks for the video. The OEM manual doesn't say anything about checking for the alternating signal at the coil ground. I don't have a test light, but I pulled out my Heathkit oscilloscope and connected it - I have alternating voltage at the coil ground. Connecting a wire from the coil terminal to near the block, I was able get a spark there. I had destroyed the rotor trying to get it off, so I installed one from a 92-93 distributor (the part numbers are different - are they interchangeable?). The resistance through the rotor was sky high until I used a small wire brush to clean the center contact and get resistance down to about an ohm. Similar for the cap, cleaned up the carbon contact to make sure I had low resistance from the coil contact to the center button in the cap. With all that done, I still get no indication of spark at the plugs.

20190813_191810 by Paul Kemme, on Flickr

How big a gap should the spark be able to jump? With the wire about a quarter inch away from the block, there was no spark; had to get it a lot closer and the spark was more orange in color than blue. Weak coil? Resistance measurements between terminals were right where they were supposed to be according to the manual. I can get a coil from Honda, but not cap and rotor - any recommendations for those besides my local AutoZone?

[Grumpys93]

I'm pretty sure you meant to say a cold engine, right?

Yes cold engine. Brain fart. I edited my post, I thought that sounded weird. Thanks for the back up.

[wtfisafleek]

I know your suppose to do it on a warm engine...

I'm pretty sure you meant to say a cold engine, right?

[Grumpys93]

So your getting no spark all together? Also have you done a valve adjustment yet? just to confirm your valves are closing completely when they need to I would check the valve lash.

Are you testing for spark at the spark plug? If your not getting spark at the plug check the coil with a test light. Hold the test light a half an inch from the coil(cap off) and have someone try to start and you should see if arc.


This is my video I go to every time I have a no start. He does a great job walking you down the chain.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9K78XIhhjAQ


I have had experience where ICMs have gone out for no reason or warning and I have gone through 2-3 until I had a good one. I always grab these from the junkyard.

Hopefully that video helps Paul.
But I wonder if the shock wave from the belt snapping and the piston to valve collision could have shocked the ignition system and maybe caused a component to fail. 8 valves is a good amount of bent valves.

I don’t think you bent any valves putting the head on and the shop should have given you the head set back to TDC.

[wtfisafleek]

Where did you find the test harness? I'd looked once or twice and thought it was no longer available from Honda.

[Fleetw00d]

Hope everything works out and it fires up and runs great for you!

Would have been nice. Back together enough to try it. Sounds normal while cranking, but no spark. Back at it tomorrow.

Aug. 11, 2019: There was a spring missing between the distributor cap and coil tower, but I think this has been missing for a while - it looks like spark has been jumping this gap. Cut a spring to make sure there is contact; no change. Check engine light wasn't on, but jumping the connector showed a code 15; ignition output signal. I appear to have power to the appropriate wires in the distributor. More troubleshooting tomorrow.

Other issues: Still sounds like little or no compression on one cylinder while cranking. The head was completely assembled by the shop, which means at least some valves were open - I tried to be careful not to set the head down on a flat surface (supported the ends). I hope I didn't bend one before putting it on.

Both fan temperature sensor electrical connectors disintegrated while trying to reconnect them; found one of them with a broken wire. I was able to undo one connector shell from a spare harness and repair the connector for the sensor on the thermostat housing. I hate to cut the spare harness to solder the wires, are new connector sockets available from Honda?

Aug 12, 2019: Discouraging. Thermostat ground is attached. Installed another ignition control module (from a spare distributor); no change. Because it was relatively easy, installed a spare ECM; no change. Ignition system worked fine before the timing belt broke; anyone else experience no spark after a timing belt failure incident? OEM manual talks about checks with the test harness (installed between body harness and ECM). Several times I almost coughed up the several hundred ($600+) for the test harness from Honda.

[bjaccord]

Hope everything works out and it fires up and runs great for you!

[Fleetw00d]

There are a few places in the cylinder head where the oil will pool, and only 6 main drains. So oil remaining in the cylinder head is normal.

I thought is was normal, that's why it struck me as odd that there wasn't much oil in the wells/troughs under the cam.

July 29, 2019: Pulled the rocker assembly and camshaft. There was oil puddled in the well/trough, but not as much as I would normally expect.

20190729_191648 by Paul Kemme, on Flickr

The first journal looks a little scored, didn't feel it with my fingernail (yeah, a little out of focus). Can the journals be polished a little? New part clearance is 0.002 - 0.0035 inches; service limit is 0.006 inches. I'll have to take the spare head apart and see what it looks like.

20190729_212902 by Paul Kemme, on Flickr

Aug. 2, 2019: Stripped nut/bolt head sockets to the rescue. Someone must have really cranked on the tensioner nut; it started to strip even using a flare nut wrench. Pulled the belts and water pump off. There is a retainer plate on the balance shaft seal which is an indication that the belts were actually done at some point.

Aug. 9, 2019: Got the head back from the shop yesterday. Eight bent valves (6 ex, 2 in) and the cam was a little crooked. I'm not sure the crooked cam was because the belt broke, or a contributor; I wouldn't think you could transmit enough force through a valve (particularly when it is only contacting the piston on an edge) to bend the cam. Luckily I had a spare head I could steal the valves from and its cam was straight. I have another spare cam that I may have checked out and go ahead and rebuild this second head as a completed spare. Reassembly starts this evening.

Head back on:
Message_1565399708125 by Paul Kemme, on Flickr

[H311RA151N]

Ah man. That's sad to hear. Do you think the belt was changed like the individual you bought it from stated? Kinda crappy if not.

No idea about the oil wells. Like you said, it's all in the condition of the cam caps and head bearing surfaces when you remove the caps and cam.

[Jarrett]

There are a few places in the cylinder head where the oil will pool, and only 6 main drains. So oil remaining in the cylinder head is normal.

[Fleetw00d]

No luck. Belt was indeed broken. #1 didn't leak, #3 just a little, #4 a lot, didn't bother with #2.

I'll ask this question here and in the technical section (more people may see it there).

Are the oil wells in the head for the cam supposed to drain at all? I noticed today when checking cylinder leakage that there wasn't much oil in them and the cam seemed hard to turn. How far does the car need to be tilted forward or back for them to drain? I had it on a tow dolly (front end high) and climbed some hills getting it home - think that would be enough to mostly drain them? I may fill them with oil now that it is sitting level and see if it drains. I'll see the condition of the cam bearings when I pull the rocker assembly
and camshaft.