Train Derailment near me...3 engineers dead

[King James]

Cops showed up shortly after and we could see them starting towards her. So im sure shes fine.

[Ralphie]

Damn that sucks.

So basically the signal that told them to go slow was in a shitty location....if they had to stop at a station after the signal, then that signal does no good.

Should be between said station and said crossover.

Im sure they will fix it now that something has happened.

Good example of being distracted.

Not to say that it is their fault because it happens in every job across the world, but with 3 engineers, i would of hoped one would have caught it before it is too late.

Don't know if they got caught up in just the day to day monotony or just were bs and forgot that they had to go slow but its definitely a good lesson in being focused on what your doing when you perform a job like that.

[King James]

That signal is never going to get moved. Every single day I work I pass signals and have to stop before the next one (to do work, my train fucked up, ect) and the onus is on us to remember what we entered on and if we cant remember you never guess. EVER or else this happens.

If you dont work with this stuff everyday it seems fucked up that this could happen. The human element is always there and its unfortunate it that a simple lapse cost them their lives, but the reason this happened is very easy for any of us to do.

I dont understand why everyone thinks that they just werent paying attention though. I guarantee they spoke of the change of signal from the norm, but thats where the problem comes in. They stopped and went about their business as if it was normal and they just went back into their regular routine. Painfully simple but it happens to everyone who does the same thing over and over.

[Ralphie]

That signal is never going to get moved. Every single day I work I pass signals and have to stop before the next one (to do work, my train fucked up, ect) and the onus is on us to remember what we entered on and if we cant remember you never guess. EVER or else this happens.

If you dont work with this stuff everyday it seems fucked up that this could happen. The human element is always there and its unfortunate it that a simple lapse cost them their lives, but the reason this happened is very easy for any of us to do.

I dont understand why everyone thinks that they just werent paying attention though. I guarantee they spoke of the change of signal from the norm, but thats where the problem comes in. They stopped and went about their business as if it was normal and they just went back into their regular routine. Painfully simple but it happens to everyone who does the same thing over and over.

Well i didn't mean not paying attention as in goofing off.

Im sure they take their jobs seriously.

I was simply saying that it sounds as if the signal could be better placed.

Obviously people become used to doing the same thing every day.

Why do you think parents leave their children in the back of cars in the middle of summer?

A lot of times it is because that parent is not the one who normally drops the kids off....and so being use to NOT having a child in the back, they are distracted with life and forget the child in the back.

Probably what happened there...

they were so use to going straight that they forgot the signal told them to use the crossover.

[owequitit]

Its frustrating listening to the media speculate as to what caused the crash

They werent going that fast to show off (the trainee was already qualified to work an engine. He was mainly there to learn territory). It happened because of complacency. The engineers work that train everyday and almost everytime they go straight instead of going over the crossover. The signal indication for that crossover told the guys to go slow because they were be using that crossover. The problem with that is they stopped at a station AFTER the signal and more than likely they just forgot and thus went track speed thinking nothing different was going on.

Scott is an unbelievable reality check. I cant stop thinking about all the close calls Ive had because of complacency.

I feel the need to address this; there is absolutely no way any running trades employees will go 50mph over a 15mph crossover to show off. We are all professionals and we know how dangerous it can be on the rails (hopefully this helps remind everyone else).

Theres a saying for conductors/engineers and its that our rule book was written in blood. We may not always agree with the rules but we fully understand why they're there.

Not to direct this at you persay, but Ive heard this speculation a few times and it bothers me.

Ill reply to scotts normalized deviation here as well. I cant speak for VIA employees (although Ive no doubt they are as vigilant as CN ones) but with it comes to speeds on the main line or anything that could hurt or kill the general population this doesnt happen. Freights are limited to 60mph and we never exceed that. If there are slow orders or anything like that we always follow them. I dont want to die at work. Im not willing to cut a corner if it could cost me my life and I know all of my co-workers feel the same way.

This only pertains to main line freight or passengers. In the yards where we build them, normalized deviation is the fucking devil.

That signal is never going to get moved. Every single day I work I pass signals and have to stop before the next one (to do work, my train fucked up, ect) and the onus is on us to remember what we entered on and if we cant remember you never guess. EVER or else this happens.

If you dont work with this stuff everyday it seems fucked up that this could happen. The human element is always there and its unfortunate it that a simple lapse cost them their lives, but the reason this happened is very easy for any of us to do.

I dont understand why everyone thinks that they just werent paying attention though. I guarantee they spoke of the change of signal from the norm, but thats where the problem comes in. They stopped and went about their business as if it was normal and they just went back into their regular routine. Painfully simple but it happens to everyone who does the same thing over and over.

Not disagreeing, just discussing, but a couple of observations.

1) Complacency is absolutely the enemy. You can extend to pretty much any discipline, but it is extraordinarily true in any situation with a lot of metal moving, or lives at risk. On that I agree totally. It is also unfortunate that humans are basically genetically engineered to be complacent until something (such as this accident) catches their attention. Usually, that something is something that didn't happen to them, or something that doesn't cause a disaster quite this big, but it is something that could have nonetheless.

Usually, those situation end in disaster when there is a chain of events. As you said, the deviation from the normal routine (in terms of the track switch), the stop in between, and the poor placement of the sign are all links in the chain that if prevented would have prevented the accident. Unfortunately they didn't. It will be interesting to see how CN responds because it will highlight their safety culture (or lack thereof pretty well). I would be surprised to see that they make at least some changes to attempt to prevent the situtation from happening again. I would be surprised if they don't actually.

Most of the regs in most of the regulated industries are written in blood. It is certainly no different in aviation where we are just a buried in regs that have be there because some bonehead had to go kill themselves by doing exactly what the reg says not to.

2) That said, we had an IP that bellied a couple month old $750,000 airplane a couple months ago and did probably $100K in damage, as well as untold dollars in labor costs and loss of revenue. Luckily, the plane overall was fine, but it needed extensive repairs. Luckily, nobody was hurt. And that was a cheap situation. I can only imagine the billions lost from such train or commercial aviation situations. In some cases, it can bankrupt the companies.

Anyway, I know the IP and he was very experienced, but it was the end of a semester, we had all been working 6 12's and it was right before Christmas (literally the day before we shut down for the holiday). It was at the end of the day, and he was tired, complacent, and the airplane has a poor gear warning system. Couple them altogether and it didn't end well.

The problem with complacency is it is NOT paying attention. When something like this happens (even with compounding factors) there IS an element of complacency. No doubt about that. The best people can do is to keep trying to fight complacency.

3) I am glad to hear that there aren't overt normalized deviations in this day and age, and in your operation. For the most part, most groups have learned that the accidents caused by it cost far more than the money saved. This has pushed most acceptance of it out of the industries where it used to prevail. However, sometimes you still find poor management.

Also, normalized deviation isn't always overt. In many cases you just don't realize you are doing it, or you don't think you are doing it enough. Common example: driving 5MPH or less over the speed limit. Nearly everyone does it, and it doesn't seem to drastically affect the accident rate, and yet, TECHNICALLY it IS normalized. In most jobs, there is a fair enough degree of time/performance pressure that there is some small degree of normalized deviation, even if it isn't overt. You might not even be operating outside the "published" policy in some cases.

Unfortunately, all you can do is try to not be complacent and be determined to not follow in their path. I find myself having to remind myself of our first fatal accident from time to time. I remember that surreal feeling and thinking that "if it can happen to them, it can sure as hell happen to me." That has probably improved my decision making and performance, but I still finding myself fighting the temptation to push just a little bit further in order to get that last little bit done, be on time, etc. It is just a part of jobs such as these, especially when you add in extenuating circumstances.