Refrigerant Alternative for R12 Systems

[F22Chris]

Personally, I just vacuum and retrofit. Some people might not have this luxury, and seeing as R12 isn't really around anymore, I found this.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HC-12a

It's also known as ES-12a. It mixes with all oils, and can be used as a direct replacement to R12 AND 134a. The refrigerant doesn't hurt ozone, and is said to run colder than R12, so that's a plus! It doesn't kill the ozone, and it's more efficient? Win.

It's "illegal" to use in systems in the United States, due to it being flammable. Honestly, AC systems are flammable anyway, so why that's the law is beyond me. Regardless, this is why shops have to evacuate and refill, rather than top off. Many people on the VW forums I visit have used it with great results.

I have searched, and Envirosafe seems to be the main supplier. You can buy it off Amazon for like $60 a case. I hope this helps!

[cp[mike]]

interesting, sounds like a worthy alternative. anybody who gives it a shot, please post up your results!

[illinois_erik]

good ole isobutane, they make it in my town. one of their buildings blew up not too long ago. many new appliances use this stuff, so be weary when moving a fridge not to cause a leak in the condenser, they need to add something for smell like natural gas has.

[F22Chris]

Well damn! That sucks.

I was browsing a store today, and I found an air horn. I looked on the back for what's inside, and it's 134a. Sooo, we can't let out refrigerant from the cars, but we can do it out of a horn? 'Murica.

I certainly think it's worth a shot if your AC system is in working order though.

[masospaghetti]

R-134a is used as a propellant in aerosols (look at compressed air, it's just R-134a). I agree that it's silly that its illegal to vent R-134a A/C systems.

I've never used a hydrocarbon refrigerant before. I've heard it does indeed cool much better than R-134a, especially in older vehicles intended for R-12. But still, I would be hesitant to put a hydrocarbon into the A/C system. The bottom line is that the A/C system was designed to contain a non-flammable product. It was not built to contain essentially propane. In a collision I would have serious doubts about your safety.

Some manufacturers such as Redtek claim that even though its a hydrocarbon, it has a higher flame point than R-134a. Perhaps.

IMO R-134a cools fine most of the time even in hot 95 F humid southern summers. The performance is really only lacking when stuck in traffic with low pump flow at idle and low airflow through the condenser.

[SSMAccord]

I was using this in my CB before it got decommissioned.

It does make the system blow very cold and I haven't had an issue with flammability.

I prefer it to R134-A in the CB system, I have always felt that the CB system isn't really suited for R134-A as the A/C runs luke warm in my experience.

[92smokeaccord]

i legit just changed my 4 dr to 134..all i did was fill up my system with 134a with the r12 to 134a fitting.its crazy cold but my compressor clutch is slipping.imagine its 20+years old..

[deevergote]

Isn't it very bad to put 134a into n r12 system that hasn't been fully flushed?


I've read a few things on Miata forums regarding the use of refrigerants that are supposedly r12 compatible. Nothing good was said about any of them, unfortunately. My system seems to be in need of a recharge, and I'd love to find something that could allow me to avoid an expensive retrofit!

[F22Chris]

Yes it's bad. The oils will mix and turn to gummed up brown stuff.

You can use the Es-12 in your Miata with no problems. The guys in the MK1 & MK2 forums I am on use it with zero problems. How hot does it get up north, Deev?

[deevergote]

These past few weeks, it's been in the high 90s, and extremely humid. It's only 90 right now, and it feels downright pleasant!

Aside from keeping cool, it also SUCKS having a car with no AC when it's raining. Windows fog up like crazy, and there's not much you can do about it.

[F22Chris]

Wow it's hotter there than it is here! Granted it's mad humid here... Saying "only 90" is something serious though.

I can't stand it honestly.. The windshield will fog up here because of the AC being on. I use the Rain X fog stuff for it because it's pretty bad. I actually use it in my bathroom on the mirror too.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/16889024?w...&wl13=&veh=sem

[deevergote]

I tried that in my Fit a few years ago. It didn't seem to help. Only made it streaky and foggy! Maybe I just didn't clean it well enough before applying. I can never do a good job cleaning the inside of my windshield, it seems. Even on the stupid Miata, where it should be totally easy (being a tiny convertible and all!)

[lbus9168]

I've used rainx to great success, you probably just didn't apply it properly.

Makes a big difference in the mountains on cold nights.

[GTRON]

Isn't it very bad to put 134a into n r12 system that hasn't been fully flushed?


I've read a few things on Miata forums regarding the use of refrigerants that are supposedly r12 compatible. Nothing good was said about any of them, unfortunately. My system seems to be in need of a recharge, and I'd love to find something that could allow me to avoid an expensive retrofit!

Mine was not completely flushed, and it's working well!

[GTRON]

I tried that in my Fit a few years ago. It didn't seem to help. Only made it streaky and foggy! Maybe I just didn't clean it well enough before applying. I can never do a good job cleaning the inside of my windshield, it seems. Even on the stupid Miata, where it should be totally easy (being a tiny convertible and all!)

The struggle is real. Never can get the inside of my windshield perfectly clean!