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Old 02-21-2012, 07:19 PM   #1
Jarrett
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Read this before asking about doing a Frankenstein build!

It seems that nearly every week someone on the forum asks about doing an H22 or H23 head swap onto their F22A block. Or an F22B1 head swap onto the F22A block as an upgrade. These and many other scenarios are questions that have been answered VERY thoroughly for way too many times. The reason is that people refuse to search and just assume that their idea is original or just don't care if the information is already out there. I want to make this page for the sole purpose of having a link to give you in response to these requests that will undoubtedly continue to pop up.

Do you actually have the ability to pull off a basic engine rebuild?
If not then you don't need to be dabbling in mating parts together that were not intended for each other. Start off with something more up to speed.

Do you really have a reason for doing this other than the fact that you can get a head for cheap/free or because you want a DOHC VTEC engine?
If that's the case, stop. You haven't thought about this. You're in shortcut mode because you think that the system can be beat for a couple hundred dollars. The few people who have had success with these combinations didn't do it because they wanted a cheap way out. Also, simply because an engine has the two properties of being DOHC and having VTEC doesn't create magic. Many more variables are against you here as will be discussed later.

Understand this thread:
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=41915

All too often the hypothetical hybrid builds people think up or hear others doing can be disproved or invalidated by a simple dimensional figure. Most often this is trying to mate a block and head of different bore sizes. I made a crude image in MSPaint to show what's going on when you want to try putting a head for a larger bore engine on the block.



In the first example the image shows how the shape of the combustion chamber directs the air/gas mixture toward the top of the combustion chamber where the spark plug is. This is to create the most effective burn because more of the mixture CAN be burned.

In the second picture there appear to be two spots at the bottom of the combustion chamber. Since this is 2D I could only show it as a cutaway. That is actually a circular "pocket" of air that runs the circumference of the combustion chamber at the bottom. That space allows for turbulence to be created inside the combustion chamber instead of all of the mixture being directed toward the spark plug. The absence of material directly above the edge of the block deck also results in a more acute point. Inside a cylinder head that creates hot spots. Hot spots lead to detonation. Because this is a fairly large hot spot you run the risk of detonation causing engine failure.

Common frankenstein proposals:

H22A/H23A head onto an F22A/B block
The G22 as it's most often known. This example was the one illustrated in the MSPaint image. I showed why this one is far from ideal. A lot of people think this is the way to go because it's a cheaper alternative. You're just being lazy. Has it worked? Yes, it has. A few people have been able to do it. But that doesn't make it right. That doesn't mean they had a viable reason to defy the logic and do so. Their build is susceptible to all the issues I listed previously. Now if you wanted to sleeve your F22A to 87mm then bore differential is no longer an issue. Oil drains are a different matter. Another alternative would be a DOHC VTEC F20B head as it shares the same 85mm bore of the F22A/B blocks. However, it will still need two oil drain passages plugged on the head and the others don't line up well at all. Should you perform this swap, this is the compression ratio you'd end up with. Keep in mind, the factory F22A/B in the USA and Canada is already at a very low 8.8:1.



Assuming that is the case you'll need at minimum:
H22A head complete with cams, valves, springs and valve cover
H22A/H23A distributor
VTEC solenoid
H22A timing components
H22A water pump
H22A intake manifold
H22A header
H22A power steering pump and bracket if you want it
remove oil drain plug between cylinders 2 & 3
H22A injectors
H22A ECU(even then it's hardly correct)

These pictures are actually an F20B head and head gasket but they illustrate the requirements of blocking oil drains. The only difference in the heads is the combustion chamber diameter. The main thing you should get from these pictures really comes from the second one where you can imagine what the block deck surface of an F22A/B would be like up against the bottom of the head. You can see just how off the passages really are.





H22A head onto an F23A1 block
This is problematic for the same reason that the previous circumstance is, though because the 1mm larger bore, to a lesser extent. However, the oil passage concerns are still present. People like this one because of the longer 97mm stroke that the F23A1 crankshaft provides. It is a great stroke for making low end torque, and with some rod bolts and lighter pistons can rev just as capably as any other F-series with the exception of the F20B. The one saving grace behind this block is that it can be bored to match the 87mm needed to mate to an H22A head. But again, this does not solve the oil and coolant drain problems. They're still off just as badly as the picture I showed above.

F22B1 head onto an F22A block
This one's not recommended for a little different reason. Flow bench results have shown that the F22A head in stock form is a much better option than the F22B1/2/6 heads. A lot of people see VTEC on the F22B1 and think that it should offer them a substantial performance increase. This is just not the case. The head is horrible and the VTEC system used on SOHC heads is almost strictly for an economical benefit. The reasons not to do this head swap are the same as the reasons not to do an entire F22B1 swap also. Stick to the F22A and build it up. Have the exhaust ports gasket-matched and that will do WONDERS for that head.

F23A1/7 head onto an F22A block
This head is definitely an upgrade over the F22B1 head from a flow perspective. However, it's still not ideal and with some mild porting the F22A head will oust it. The VTEC on this head is not for performance either. And an issue that it shares with the H22/H23 head is that this head is designed for an 86mm bore. The difference is not as big as it would be with the H22/H23 head but it's still there. The only advantage I see in this head is the roller rocker assembly.

So now that we've covered that...
The bottom line is that these things continue to come up because they CAN be done. You will meet people who will tell you that they did them and that they worked just fine. I want to inform you that there are better (read:correct) ways of doing things. I do not disagree with mixing up parts. In fact, a build that I would like to do involves using parts from a few different Honda engines. But for head swaps there are many things that people simply don't consider. They're too consumed with getting "VTEC" or trying to have an "H22A" or DOHC without going through the process correctly. Be smart and use logic. Learn to build an engine that performs well over having something with a particular trait only good for showing off at meets.

One member on here who has put an H22A head onto an F22A block defends his stance by saying that he likes the torque produced over a standard H22A. If that's the case then there is a [COLOR="rgb(0, 255, 255)"]MUCH[/color] better way to achieve this. Buy an H22A engine or longblock and proceed from there. Let's assume that there are a few givens, first.

Are all hybrids or Frankenstein combinations inherently bad?
NO!!!

-There is a no proper OBD1 ECU to run this combination so a custom map is required.
-A new headgasket will already be needed anyway if we agree the alternative was swapping the head out.
-Many additional parts besides the head itself will be needed.

If you desire to have the low-end torque of a 95mm+ crankshaft with the top-end power and aggressive cam profile that a DOHC VTEC head can provide then the JDM H23A VTEC from the Accord SiR wagon is your engine. However, sometimes H22As are cheaper to come by as they are more popular and more common. If you use your 95mm crankshaft and rods in the 50mm-main H22A block combined with USDM H22A1/4 pistons then you will achieve a static compression ratio just under 11.0:1. Of course with JDM H22A pistons this would be a little higher but that's not necessarily a bad thing if you have the ability to tune for it. The primary negative aspect to this build is that its pistons will protrude above the deck height by .020". Many have run this combination before and not had issues with it. Added insurance can be had by using an aftermarket .045" headgasket which would also drop compression to around 10.5:1 (with USDM pistons). A much better alternative would be to use the same combination with F20C1 pistons. They're shorter at 30mm tall and are compatible with FRM sleeves because that's what the F20C uses. You'll need to rebush any F/H-series rods for these as these are 23mm vs. the 22mm the other engines use. They're floating-pin also so if you had press-fit bushings you would need to rebush regardless.

Here are a couple of combinations that adopt from these suggestions:

My first suggestion, but not necessarily the best is the pre-'98 H22A block with a 95mm F22A/B or H23A1 crankshaft along with the 141.5mm rods and H22A pistons with an H22A head on top. Depending on whether USDM or JDM pistons are used your compression ratio will vary. Especially is you use a thicker gasket for additional clearance.



Here is another for the same combination but with F20C pistons used instead to avoid the negative-deck clearance issues. This is probably the most ideal and would respond very well to Type S cams and a decent header.



If you are only able to source a '98 and up H22A or H22A4 block then you are slightly more limited in your crankshaft options. Either you can find an H23A VTEC crankshaft which is dimensionally the same as the F22A/B and H23A1 but uses 55mm mains to conform to Honda's '98 and later convention or you can use the F23A1 crankshaft and rods for slightly more stroke. If the F23A1 crankshaft and rods are used along with the F20C pistons (again, wrist pin resizing is needed) then you'll end up with roughly these specs:



The benefits to building this combination from an existing H22A are:

-Correct bore sizing to combustion chamber diameter!!!!!!!!!!
-Oil and coolant passages that match perfectly.
-Having all the components listed previously in the minimum requirements list in one place.
-Oil squirters for the pistons!
-Additional displacement from the bore increase(relative to the F22A/B blocks).

F22A head onto an F23A block
Another combination that has been gaining popularity is the F23 bottom end swap. This typically uses the F23A1 bottom end with an F22A1 head. The SOHC VTEC heads that Honda made for the larger 4-cylinders have left a lot to be desired. True performance is generally easier to derive from the non-VTEC F22A heads instead. Camshaft options are also much better as well. This setup can really just be assembled and installed, but for the sake of being thorough, and because every single nit-pick was made about the other combinations, I've illustrated a way to perfect this combination below. For those who want to take it a step further, the F22B DOHC or F20A DOHC head can be used here as well. I believe PirateMcFred did it to a project of his but I don't remember build particulars. Deck height of the F23A block is still the same so you would need to treat the timing issue just like you would when swapping that head on an F22A block.

As we know the F23A1 cylinder bore is 86mm and the F22A combustion chamber is 85mm in diameter. This would seem to create the same ridge effect but in the opposite orientation. The reason that this isn't as dire as when the ridge is present on the cylinder is that the angle is obtuse and not acute. Heat can dissipate much easier. However, this is something that can be easily solved that can't be done to solve the cylinder ridge.





As before, I welcome criticism but I don't want angry responses or what your friend did. Just because things have been done doesn't make the reasoning behind them right at all. If you disagree, please present valid reasons why I'm wrong and why your method is better.

Last edited by Jarrett; 08-22-2017 at 11:41 PM.
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Old 08-01-2012, 04:57 PM   #2
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I opened this thread up. I was selfish in wanting it to all be fact and not up for debate but that won't help people who have questions about this. If you have any questions, be concise and I will do my best to be constructive. If you disagree with anything in here then please feel free to share. However, more than just what you've skidded by on should be presented in your argument.
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Old 08-01-2012, 09:47 PM   #3
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I've always wondered about this process expect in reverse... Example F20b block F22 head. If i had the spare engine's, parts, and money i would certainly look into it but it's nothing but merely a thought that crossed my mind when i had the chance of getting a cheap H22 block.
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Old 08-01-2012, 10:14 PM   #4
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Hybrids = trying to out engineer Honda in their prime

Good luck!

Folks just need to save up and buy the damn swaps.... OR... buy one engine in pieces. I.e. you get an H22 head.... buy an H22 short block... don't slap the shit on your F
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Old 08-02-2012, 10:21 AM   #5
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I get your meaning, Jarrett. I've discussed it with deevergote too.

Yes, people are cheap and will cheap out in the worst ways when slapping a hybrid together giving Accords, and hybrids a bad name.

Otherwise there's nothing wrong with the H-head/F-block combos as long as people use about half a brain cell in the design/assembly process. It's the same problem the B18/B20 VTEC hybrids had 20 years ago. Cheap people, running cheap, high mileage oem parts in excess of their design limitations, untuned, leading to lots of failures and unwarranted concerns over 'reliablity.'

As for attempting to out-engineer Honda's engineers that's a very easy prospect. Honda's engineers are forced to work within the Accounting and Marketing departments' specifications/shoestring budgets and are also forced to conform to governments' emission/safety standards all while trying to appeal to the taste of a bunch of boring middle-aged soccer moms' sensabilities. They're slaves to a monster which they have no control over and never will while pandering to the consumer market. At best any production car slated for use on public roads in Western Society is a cut-rate compromise. Ever notice how much a dyed-in-the-wool, unlimited race car doesn't look like a 130hp FWD 4-door sedan?

If no one could improve upon Honda's engineering then WHY ARE WE ALL HERE ON THESE FORUMS?

Irrational Honda veneration (fanboyism) need not apply, there are many organized religions that have cornered that market for centuries.

Just some things to consider.

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Old 08-02-2012, 11:46 AM   #6
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Honestly, that's a much better response than what I thought I'd get when you would inevitably find this thread. Truthfully, I respect your opinions and your wealth of research on all matters Honda that you've documented many places on the Internet. In this instance though, I just partially disagree and will continue to do so.

I don't mean to say that there's something inherently wrong with doing head swaps at all. My natural reaction, however, is to stifle conversation about it so that the assumption doesn't quickly become that you can slap the $250 head you've found some guy selling on Craigslist and make big power. If I thought that the discussion could happen without Joe Blow reading only what he wanted and doing exactly that I'd happily welcome it. Maybe I care too much about things that don't ultimately affect me.

Again, I don't mean to say that there's anything wrong with Frankenstein combinations in principle. However, I just feel that with the most popular ones there's a glaring quality that's either not considered, or just ignored because the idea was to have "DOHC VTEC" staring you in the face when you popped the hood and not a reliable engine. A 2mm bore differential is a problem. 8.3:1 static compression ratios are a problem(especially considering the dynamics of the combustion going on in chamber 2mm wider than the cylinder). Restricted drains are somewhat of a problem also. If it were the only downside to this then it wouldn't be a leg worth standing on, though. Same with tuning. I understand that most modified Honda engines will require a tune but to convince most people who just spent a total of $450 spread out over a couple of months acquiring parts that they now need to spend ~$500 on a chipped ECU and dyno tune is a losing argument.

For those that attempt the H22A head swap onto the F22A/B block, I've already given a much better alternative to consider. One that would be void of the design issues and shortcomings normally experienced.
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:27 PM   #7
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That's fine.

I'm the sort of person that will go out of his way to do something specifically becauase someone told me I couldn't or shouldn't.

I'm also nobody's mother and don't feel responsible to babysit or coddle idiots and I won't lose any sleep over anyone's ruined engine bourne from their own incompetence.

Perhaps the one saving grace for those morons that just slap an H22 head on an F-series block is that 7:1 compression is very forgiving to run untuned. If nothing else I'd like to think that the people that do destroy engine after engine might eventually learn what it is that they're doing wrong.

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Old 08-02-2012, 01:12 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateMcFred View Post
I'm the sort of person that will go out of his way to do something specifically becauase someone told me I couldn't or shouldn't.
You can't machine an aluminum 60-degree V8 block designed to accept off-the-shelf F22A heads, using an F/H rear main seal housing, oil pump, timing components and oil pan only with a bell housing pattern for a T-56. And you especially can't simplify the design process by flipping the camshaft on the driver side to orient it at the front like a standard V8 design. And most of all you can't package your creation in a way that allows the end user to utilize their own existing heads, oil pan, etc. and add them to your parts to build their own F22A-based V8. In addition to me saying you can't, you shouldn't.
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Old 08-02-2012, 01:51 PM   #9
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Jarret, i guess you care about facts too much and this will keep you from experiencing the best things in life

When i heard about the swap back in 06-07, none of it was documented like pirate i saw somebody else do it, this was from a guy that cannot use a computer to save his life

I had to do it, the first one i did was with my beater block, that had 2 heads on it previously
I did it because of a carshow i wanted to show something to people they've never seen before, and i did, i pulled it off, i was running on my f22 map
I HAVE NEVER EVEN ATTEPTED TO RUN THESE ENGINES WITH A STOCK ECU
a chipped one is so easy to get so why bother with a program that is going to make an engine pass emissions

that motor lasted till 09, it ended up glazing the walls on the cylinders, smoking really bad, again didnt bother me i was constanly taking this motor to 8k

after the first one i learned a lot, i even turbo'd my buddies and we were succesful, motor made 365whp/290tq, no headgasket issues
the only problem we has was the ebay manifold keep on cracking
nothing motor related
we tried 18psi once and broke the ringlands on piston #1 the same day we went to the JY pulled a piston, and the next day the car was running

my current motor is a b1 block, still the same head i used in 07 and it currently has 6200 miles on it, i constantly take this car from miami to jax to orlando with no headgasket issues, no oildrain issues, just a little coolant leak from the idiot that welded my waterpipe

i understand you making this thread, i too am tired of idiots asking the dumb questions, but again people do whatever they want
there's a few people that have had succes with this build and those that have is because they're doing something right, one of pirates build had over 30k miles on it
now if this was not a reliable motor, how is he able to put that many miles on it and like me those miles are of straight abuse

address this thread a little better, because the swap really does work
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Old 08-02-2012, 07:44 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarrett View Post
You can't machine an aluminum 60-degree V8 block


That's more than a ways out of my way and I don't need to reinvent the wheel when a better product's already available:

A superlight weight 500hp 3.0 V8:
http://www.h1v8.com/page/page/1562068.htm

If it's good enough for an Ariel Atom 500 it's good enough for an Accord, right?

PR CB7, that nonVTEC engine from 2004 had over 2000 circuit racing miles (without an oil cooler :o ) and more than 60,000 miles total using all-OEM parts except the cams/S&R. The F22B head was fantastic and idled a little funny on those cams. It was still running fine when I pulled it for the improved VTEC hybrid swap too. I'm looking to abuse the F/H hybrid idea a little more too, though it might take me some time to get it all sorted out:

http://www.preludepower.com/forums/s...d.php?t=349092

-P
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Old 08-03-2012, 05:57 PM   #11
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Yeah that H1V8 is a monster. It's partially what got me thinking that an F/H-based 8-cylinder could be awesome to own. It couldn't be packaged as small but I'd still LOVE to own one (or for it to exist for that matter).

And yes, I've followed you Prelude build thread for a while. I prefer your demeanor there moreso than on Honda-Tech. It seems that over the years you've become fed up over there. I wouldn't doubt it.
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Old 08-05-2012, 09:55 PM   #12
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you should open a thread saying that idiots should not try this

opening a thread like this makes me mad, being the fact that i drive this typical engine everyday and my wife's car as also a g22, her's is a b1 block with a h23 non vtec head, she drives 500miles a week
btw her's is a b1 with a oil cooler (pirate)

granted i know what im doing, but making threads like this not only scares people, it spreads false information making this useless after you spent all that time making it, the pictures, the colored words, saying its not a reliable engine, you have 2 guys saying they've had nothing but success from this
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Old 08-05-2012, 10:21 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PR CB7 View Post
you should open a thread saying that idiots should not try this

opening a thread like this makes me mad, being the fact that i drive this typical engine everyday and my wife's car as also a g22, her's is a b1 block with a h23 non vtec head, she drives 500miles a week
btw her's is a b1 with a oil cooler (pirate)

granted i know what im doing, but making threads like this not only scares people, it spreads false information making this useless after you spent all that time making it, the pictures, the colored words, saying its not a reliable engine, you have 2 guys saying they've had nothing but success from this
I can understand where Jarret, Pirate, and PR CB7 are all coming from. And i think depending on the person doing the build, all 3 of you are correct. Example, if you have the parts available and know what your doing, i can understand someone trying a g build. If i had access to all the parts, and time, i would prob try it and i prob will one day. And from Jarret's point, the average person prob should not attempt it. Example, i watched a guy attempting to change a car battery today. He just threw the battery down on the trunk of the car and then slid it across the trunk, twice! I was like, hey what are you doing? He didnt think it was a big deal. He is the kind of person Jarret is definitely trying to speak to here!!!

BTW, PR CB7, i am including your first statement above in my sig!!!

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Old 08-05-2012, 10:36 PM   #14
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Understood, and perhaps I will. However, a quote from the movie Troy comes to mind here. When Achilles and Patroclus are sparring and it is being made evident that all of Patroclus skill has come from years of instruction from his cousin Achilles. Achilles has just one-upped Patroclus..

Patroclus: You told me never to change sword hands!

Achilles: Yes. When you know how to use it, you won't be taking my orders.


This thread isn't here to say that this swap can't be done. It's here because too often people who have no clue what they are doing ask about it. And even you cannot deny the shortcomings that this combination has. It produces a static compression ratio of 8.4:1. The F22AX is anemic enough on its own with 8.8:1 and this only decreases it because of the greater combustion chamber volume. But, for the sake of argument, let's say this combination will daily-drive perfectly fine and will produce more power than a standard F22AX. You're still left with other issues however insignificant. Issues that are easily avoided by putting a little bit more thought and money into a project.

Lower compression
Less-than-ideal combustion efficiency
Having to block an oil drain on the H22/H23 head
1mm thick exposed circular ridge at the top of the cylinder that is likely already mushroomed from the miles of use it already has on it to create hot spots (detonation)
No dedicated factory ECU for this combination

99 times out of 100 this swap is not approached by someone trying to think about how to go about a build a little differently. It's about someone who found an H22A1/H23A1 head in the junkyard and thinks they can get it for cheap and with minimal effort compared to getting the whole engine. Cheap people who skimp on important things during engine builds are dangerous to themselves. To those people my message is put your rent money back in your wallet and go home. If someone wants to construct a build because of the bore and stroke dimensions it offers then I've already given a better, more ideal way of approaching it.

I really do want to keep this discussion going in a constructive manner. But I'm having to study for a summer final right now. I welcome any more thoughts you have to share, though. And I also totally agree with doing something simply to obtain the knowledge that it can be done. But simply because something CAN be done doesn't mean it's the best option.
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Old 08-05-2012, 11:58 PM   #15
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It's the same problem the B18/B20 VTEC hybrids had 20 years ago. Cheap people, running cheap, high mileage oem parts in excess of their design limitations, untuned, leading to lots of failures and unwarranted concerns over 'reliablity.'
IMO I think this is the biggest problem. A lot of people are mislead by there buddy who is supposedly selling him a low mileage head and we all know there is a million and one miles on it and been on 2 or 3 blown motors and told him all he had to do was bolt it on. So he tries it not taking his time running a stock ecu and fails miserable now he running around telling everybody that its a bad idea to do the hybrid swap. When he didn't even know what he was doing in the first place.
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Old 08-06-2012, 11:38 AM   #16
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We both have a different perspective about this, I have a lot of experience on this type of motor, there is a reason why I chose to put these motors on both my cars, I wanted something dohc, reliable and cheap something that I could build with oem parts and make power at the same time

Both motors were built by me and both have been more than reliable
Lets just say I built 2 Achilles with titanium heels
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Old 08-06-2012, 12:26 PM   #17
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Full H22s are not that expensive and way more reliable than a hybrid

For an experienced builder maybe it can be worth it but for the avg poster here, hell no
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im with you on that one bro! aint nothing beat free food and drinks any day of the week, even if its at a funeral
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:17 PM   #18
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I'm not even saying that you have to do a plain-Jane H22A. In fact, i dont particularly like the low stroke. The build I mentioned earlier that I keep harping on will accomplish the same benefits that this hybrid has while doing so as a better-engineered design.

People seem to insist on using OEM head gaskets so often because of how necessary it is to have as quality of a part there as possible. Then why is it suddenly acceptable to use an F23A head gasket that, in addition to the exposed deck surface because of bore differential, will also have a .25mm ring around each cylinder exposed because it's 86.5mm? You (anyone) have every right to call out my lack of experience with this setup, but with those two issues alone (exposed deck and exposed head gasket lip) I would look into alternatives. The popularity of this swap seems based on compromise.

But I feel I should clarify again that the point of this thread is not to attack those like PirateMcFred(Holy crap! Auto-fill on my iPhone even knows who you are!) and PR_CB7 who have had success with this. It's to show the issues that inherently exist with this and to show that there are better alternatives for 99% of those out there. If you need proof just google "Honda G22" or like terms and see how many thread results you get with the word "HELP!!!!!!!!!!" in them. Granted most of those people shouldn't have touched their engine in the first place, but it still shows that there are many problems associated with this.
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Old 08-06-2012, 03:54 PM   #19
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Look up in Honda society, they have over 10 members that had success with this
With some work to the head, a 85mm will do just fine, Hell I even used evergreen gaskets on some that currently run
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Old 08-06-2012, 04:37 PM   #20
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What counts as success

Nobody said the engines wouldnt run, just that for the avg tuner its not worth the effort

What kind of HP do you get with this swap? 150WHP? 160WHP? There are people making that on F22As NA w/stock compression

Would make more sense to do a 95mm H22A, if anything
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