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    #31
    No one's given a real-world example of what .25mm is. It's less than .010" or ten one-thousandths of an inch. That's equivelent to the thickness of about 3 sheets of nice copy paper and smaller than the ball in a ball-point pen. That's thinner than the reported boundary layer of combustion gasses in a typical engine and therefore the lip could be considered virtually insignificant.

    Just another perspective on your .25mm lip:



    1% more pressure pushing down on sleeve for a split second's pretty insignificant in my book. I'm about done here since I'm not really trying to change opinions and it seems most people are reluctant to experiment and formulate their own opinions. Afterall, the definition of insanity's repeating the same behaviour over and over and expecting a different result and I've got other things I should do with my time.

    It's been fun, my 2 are spent.

    -P
    VTEC G27? = ???whp ???wtq
    VTEC G23 = 220whp 191wtq
    nonVTEC G23 = 200whp 183wtq
    K24 iVTEC hybrid = 260whp 210wtq

    Comment


      #32


      Please tell me this thread was stickied. I get asked alot about frank swaps. Good read Jarret keep it up guys.
      The CB7 Collector.
      Team Kindred Impulse Member #3
      92 LX Coupe F22A1
      2013 Toyota Corolla S
      92 EX Sedan F22A1
      Originally posted by deevergote
      Do you really need to make a thread asking if having your car like this /---\ will cause uneven tire wear? Try walking like that for a few weeks and see if your shoes wear funny! (hint: they will.)

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by PR CB7 View Post
        There is a reason why variable valve timing was invented, unfortunately a non vvt head has none of this

        On a non vvt head, you can't have a decent idle and conserve gas at the same time, it has a solid lobe, a lobe that will give you that "cammed" sound

        Even though the f22a head has a bigger ports and valve angle is better than the H
        The head lacks of another cam to easier control the opening and closing of valves and it lack of adjustable valve timing, 2 important factors in the racing world

        Now everyone here uses bisi as an example, which is great but he transformed that motor into a race engine, you don't see him nowhere else but the track
        In order to maximize the ouput of those ports. BIG cam is needed
        When it comes to racing to get somethings you have to sacrifice others
        Head than can change the the opening of a valve on the fly is something that will make power and retain some driveability

        Granted compression will be the yielding factor in this game, but with a 85mm bore and iron sleeves that can be bored to 87mm, there are plenty of k series pistons and forged
        h22pistons that can be used on this block, something the Frm sleeves don't let you do

        Where this block shines is the extra 5mm of stroke on the crank and the use of iron sleeves
        I'm not bashing on frm, but iron is so easy to work with, boring is simple no special stones are required and the fact that you start small and have 2mm of boring to play with if something were to happen, if you go over .50 on a frm sleeve you'll destroy it
        To damage a sleeve .50 is not that hard to do, but is a nice peace of mind that it can be fixed
        It would suck to have invested so much money on a block and scoring it later
        The only other choice you have is sleeving

        It's only a matter of time until other people figure this out, right now this combo has some bad rep, but not for long
        Keep doing calculations and maybe you'll figure it out
        Forgive me if I'm misinformed, but who has an F22A/B block running an 87mm bore? The last I knew on the subject Wes was making a deck plate out of a scrap head but hasn't really had time to devote to it between work and his other projects. While it isn't the heart of this topic, if the F22A/B can be bored to 87mm safely that would be interesting to see. I probably personally wouldn't do it but, like you said, the K24 pistons do present an interesting alternative to forged aftermarket.

        And I didn't use Bisi as an example because I feel that his results easily translate to the street or what normal people are capable of for that matter. Only that the head is not scrap metal and does have benefits in certain arenas. Your points on variable valve timing and how they are implemented on the H22A are mostly true, though.

        Originally posted by PirateMcFred View Post
        No one's given a real-world example of what .25mm is. It's less than .010" or ten one-thousandths of an inch. That's equivelent to the thickness of about 3 sheets of nice copy paper and smaller than the ball in a ball-point pen. That's thinner than the reported boundary layer of combustion gasses in a typical engine and therefore the lip could be considered virtually insignificant.

        Just another perspective on your .25mm lip:



        1% more pressure pushing down on sleeve for a split second's pretty insignificant in my book. I'm about done here since I'm not really trying to change opinions and it seems most people are reluctant to experiment and formulate their own opinions. Afterall, the definition of insanity's repeating the same behaviour over and over and expecting a different result and I've got other things I should do with my time.

        It's been fun, my 2 are spent.

        -P
        Pirate, you're right. In my previous post I alluded to it being a weak argument but truthfully, in the grand scheme of things, it shouldn't have been given credit at all. In fact, adjacent cylinder head bolts being torqued 2-4 ft-lbs. differently than each other probably affects pressure to a greater magnitude than a .25mm lip. There are probably many other variables within otherwise identical engine builds that have more of an impact than the .25mm lip on the head gasket.

        If you're done with this conversation then thanks for stopping in as your insight and experience is always appreciated.

        Originally posted by HappyGilmore View Post


        Please tell me this thread was stickied. I get asked alot about frank swaps. Good read Jarret keep it up guys.
        If this thread was stickied then it would be me proclaiming that my opinion is fact, which it is not. It has so far served as a constructive discussion forum and that's likely the extent of its potential. The idiots whom this thread was created for (Pirate, PR_CB7, PreLittleLude if you're still around I'm not referring to people who have approached this intelligently) still will not heed any advice and continue to do what they want. Just enjoy the conversation as a respite to the talk of super low offset wheels.
        Last edited by Jarrett; 08-07-2012, 01:55 PM.
        My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

        Comment


          #34
          The prob isn't so much the idea of a hybrid as much as its the way people go about it

          You have folks w/no money, no experience and no other means of getting around looking to build "G22s" because they are too cheap to buy H22s... not cause they are curious about the potential of a hybrid build, with the money, discipline and brains to even begin to do it right


          Originally posted by lordoja
          im with you on that one bro! aint nothing beat free food and drinks any day of the week, even if its at a funeral

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by gloryaccordy View Post
            The prob isn't so much the idea of a hybrid as much as its the way people go about it

            You have folks w/no money, no experience and no other means of getting around looking to build "G22s" because they are too cheap to buy H22s... not cause they are curious about the potential of a hybrid build, with the money, discipline and brains to even begin to do it right
            That's a whole different subject, idiots will always be

            Jarret, Michael yost has a f23 block bored to 87 using K24 pistons and f23 head, and another one shawn Luna, built a f23 block K20type r piston h22 head
            Both here in florida
            Originally posted by deevergote
            Just do what PR CB7 said.

            "I'm Going For Wood" (Clickey Clickey)

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by PR CB7 View Post
              There is a reason why variable valve timing was invented, unfortunately a non vvt head has none of this

              On a non vvt head, you can't have a decent idle and conserve gas at the same time, it has a solid lobe, a lobe that will give you that "cammed" sound

              Even though the f22a head has a bigger ports and valve angle is better than the H
              The head lacks of another cam to easier control the opening and closing of valves and it lack of adjustable valve timing, 2 important factors in the racing world

              Now everyone here uses bisi as an example, which is great but he transformed that motor into a race engine, you don't see him nowhere else but the track
              In order to maximize the ouput of those ports. BIG cam is needed
              When it comes to racing to get somethings you have to sacrifice others
              Head than can change the the opening of a valve on the fly is something that will make power and retain some driveability

              Granted compression will be the yielding factor in this game, but with a 85mm bore and iron sleeves that can be bored to 87mm, there are plenty of k series pistons and forged
              h22pistons that can be used on this block, something the Frm sleeves don't let you do

              Where this block shines is the extra 5mm of stroke on the crank and the use of iron sleeves
              I'm not bashing on frm, but iron is so easy to work with, boring is simple no special stones are required and the fact that you start small and have 2mm of boring to play with if something were to happen, if you go over .50 on a frm sleeve you'll destroy it
              To damage a sleeve .50 is not that hard to do, but is a nice peace of mind that it can be fixed
              It would suck to have invested so much money on a block and scoring it later
              The only other choice you have is sleeving

              It's only a matter of time until other people figure this out, right now this combo has some bad rep, but not for long
              Keep doing calculations and maybe you'll figure it out
              I knew the F23A could be bored to 87mm, but this comment above made it seem like you were implying that the F22A/B could reach that as well.
              My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

              Comment


                #37
                It can, take a caliper gauge to measure thickness of both walls and you shall see
                Originally posted by deevergote
                Just do what PR CB7 said.

                "I'm Going For Wood" (Clickey Clickey)

                Comment


                  #38
                  But is anyone running a stock sleeve 87mm F22A in reality

                  Do the F22A/F23A have different coolant/oil passages around the cylinders... that alone could be the difference. They prob changed them for the F23A because they knew they would have less material to work with

                  What kind of sleeves does the K have, Ks have the same bore spacing as F/H but somehow run 87mm w/o FRM


                  Originally posted by lordoja
                  im with you on that one bro! aint nothing beat free food and drinks any day of the week, even if its at a funeral

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by gloryaccordy View Post
                    But is anyone running a stock sleeve 87mm F22A in reality

                    Do the F22A/F23A have different coolant/oil passages around the cylinders... that alone could be the difference. They prob changed them for the F23A because they knew they would have less material to work with

                    What kind of sleeves does the K have, Ks have the same bore spacing as F/H but somehow run 87mm w/o FRM
                    F23 and f22 sleeve O.C. is the same, the 2.2 inner circumference is smaller because the boe is intended for a smaller piston, both bores are identical when bored to 87
                    Originally posted by deevergote
                    Just do what PR CB7 said.

                    "I'm Going For Wood" (Clickey Clickey)

                    Comment


                      #40
                      first I would like to thank PirateMcFred and also guys like prelude little on ht

                      without there contribution we might not be having this discussion.

                      I have been around hondas long enough to remember when guys were saying its was impossible to run an H head on an F block.
                      now a new generation with the detonation shelf talk.

                      there is a need for this thread but all too often replys are more opinion than fact.

                      I have read all the hybrid / frankinstein engine builds threads too.

                      then I went in my shop put a bare stock bore f23a1 block on the engine stand.

                      set a stock h22 head on top.

                      stuck my hand down the cylinder wall looking for this shelf that is the source of detonation.

                      I am here to tell you it does not exist. it is just not there.

                      you guys are just repeating this stuff like its the truth when your not getting your hands dirty.


                      atleast do the math correctly.

                      h22 head combustion chamber 87mm
                      f23a1 block 86.5mm
                      = .5mm differance

                      ok did you guys forget that a cylinder wall is round
                      divide .5mm / 3.14 (pi)
                      answer .159xxx mm
                      Budget Street is offline working in the shop

                      drop the mouse and pick up a wrench

                      Originally posted by deevergote
                      Good for you. You don't even know how to spell VTEC.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Settle down with the math there before you hurt yourself. Your specs are wrong too. The F23A1 cylinder is 86mm. The gasket is 86.5mm. To measure the lip you're looking for a differentiation in radius which is the diameter (bore) divided by two.

                        The other point of your comment was that you shoved your hand in a hole and didn't feel anything which is apparently a more valuable measure than precision instruments.
                        My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

                        Comment


                          #42
                          I've edited the original post of this thread quite heavily because some people think that I am against the idea of doing things in a way that goes against the Honda deity's desires. That's not true. I just like to have a little bit of sound thought behind why I do things the way I do.
                          My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

                          Comment


                            #43
                            you should have made it a poll so we could vote sticky. getting tired of people asking the same chit every week

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by 8ball View Post
                              you should have made it a poll so we could vote sticky. getting tired of people asking the same chit every week
                              Werd......

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Trust me... nobody reads sticky threads.
                                And this thread has already been added to the "read here first" sticky... which nobody reads, obviously.






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