Lets Talk Honda Engines- Discussion Thread

[CB7 Sleeper]

After reading a bit in the "CB7 vs. RSX" racing thread, I decided to submit some posts on my view of the subject being discussed, which was K series vs H series, pretty much. I would like some other opinions on Honda's engineering and design of engines. What do you think? Read what I posted and give me some views on your general opinion of Honda engines.

I agree, not hating on the K series, because it is the new bad boy of this era, but stock for stock, the K does not "own" the H22a.

With a built motor, or even bolt-ons, of course the K is going to make more power. The engine was genially designed. The compression is higher, the head flow is very impressive, and the over-all design is intelligent compared to the H. Even considering the H22a was ahead of it's time when first engineered, but that's just what Honda does. That is what they will always do.

Now when you compare money spent to horsepower increase, I think that's going to be debatable. Sure, K series modifications are going to be more expensive, but because of the design of the engine and the quality of the parts, the K series is going to make more power with less modification, whereas the H is going to need more parts, therefor equaling more money spent to make the same power. So in a sense, the are equal.

As for power potential, the both have awesome potential being that they are both designed well beyond their time. The H22a was very impressive when it debuted in the early 90's and the K series is just as impressive when it came out. They have awesome potential and are but when the H came out, the first modifications weren't as impressive as the modifications that came out shortly after the K series came out. Of course, now this is a whole different ball game due to the fact that technology has changed and the current modifications that are coming out for the H are way better compared to the way they were way back when.

But when all is said and done, the K is going to make more power later on I'm sure as techno0logy advances, and as it advances, the H series will soon grow old and become outsourced, becuase it will become less common, K series will be cheaper, people will be purchasing more K series for swaps, the aftermarket companies are going to start focusing more on the K series than the H, and things will change. The only guys to bring back the H will be those willing to venture into the old-skool territory like Bisimoto I'm sure and the K series, which is already superior due to it's new introduction to the market, and the fact that modification for it will continue to grow.

In the end, the K series wins due to it's age and relevance to this new era of tuning. The H is still a reputable engine for now, but for how long is the question? Stock for stock, yes, the engines are equal when transmission gearing and design aren't taken into account. Strictly power output. But, as far as power potential, price of modification, age, and other relevant factors to the topic at hand go, the K series will forever be superior. At least until Honda comes out with something new.

Later.

Honda has always been amazxingly engineering engines. N/A four cylinder engines that they were making in the 90's and even in the 80's, shit, even in the beginning, when they were making motorcycles, have always been very impressive and ahead of their time. The power output they have made in the past with N/A applications has always been ridiculously amazing to me at least. Many other auto manufacturers could not make the power Honda was making with N/A four cylinder applications.

To this day some of them still cannot. Just look at GM, in order to make 200 hp out of their Cobalt SS when it came out, it had to be supercharged. Now, why couldn't they engineer it to do that N/A? Are they incapable? No, I'm not saying that, if they put more effort into the technology to engineer their vehicles, they could do the same. All auto manufacturers could do the same. It's that they do not spend the money to do so, or take the time. Well, maybe this is just my opinion, but it's what I believe so far, and I haven't had anybody tell me otherwise. I know h22spakle has a little more information on the Cobalt SS and maybe he can provide some information on the background of the design, but this is how I feel. I'm not hating the Cobalt SS, it is a very impressive vehicle from a certain perspective, considering the new turbocharged ones are putting down around 250 hp. I am just using it as a example.

All in all, I am a fan of Honda because they are consistently surprising their followers with expertly and intelligently designed vehicles. The engines, the cars period, are amazing, simply put. This is why I am a fan of Honda, and this is why I will continue to purchase my cars from Honda.

This is not a K series vs. H series thread, it's just a general opinion and technical discussion on the engine designs by Honda vs. other auto manufacturers, etc. The above statement is just to give a general idea of what was being discussed and what I thought.

Post up.

This thread could provide some good information with good input. I have a feeling it will go far. I am specifically seeking the input of the guys like owequitit, HondaFan81 (C'mon Cisco), Deev, h22sparkle, and others who I have seen get in-depth in technical information in the past.

[PointBlank]

Subscribed

I don't know shit compared to the members you listed so I am just going to be part of the audience.

[CB7 Sleeper]

Subscribed

I don't know shit compared to the members you listed so I am just going to be part of the audience.

Lol, cool man.

[deevergote]

The K series is engineered better than the H22. The things that Honda learned with the H22 have been improved upon and used in the K series. The valvetrain is smaller, tolerances are tighter (due to improved manufacturing processes), and overall flow is better.

Comparing the H22 to the K series is like comparing Einstein to a modern-day rocket scientist. Einstein is the genius, whereas the modern scientist is nameless. However, the modern scientist, using Einstein's advancements, is the smarter of the two. Einstein was just the trailblazer.


The only things the H22 has over the K series as far as the CB7 goes is price and ease of installation. The H22 has enough potential to make more than enough horsepower than any sane person would ever need in a FWD street car (as does the F22A, actually). That doesn't make it better than the K series... but it makes it a better option in many cases.

[CB7 Sleeper]

The K series is engineered better than the H22. The things that Honda learned with the H22 have been improved upon and used in the K series. The valvetrain is smaller, tolerances are tighter (due to improved manufacturing processes), and overall flow is better.

Comparing the H22 to the K series is like comparing Einstein to a modern-day rocket scientist. Einstein is the genius, whereas the modern scientist is nameless. However, the modern scientist, using Einstein's advancements, is the smarter of the two. Einstein was just the trailblazer.


The only things the H22 has over the K series as far as the CB7 goes is price and ease of installation. The H22 has enough potential to make more than enough horsepower than any sane person would ever need in a FWD street car (as does the F22A, actually). That doesn't make it better than the K series... but it makes it a better option in many cases.

Very true, thank you for the input. The Einstein comparison example was awesome.

The F22a has great power potential, but making as much power as the H22a in an F22a, considering you are building for high HP N/A, the F22a is not going to be ideal for daily driving, obviously.

And yes, the H can make more than enough power for any sane person driving a FWD car.

[deevergote]

Yeah, the H22 at 250whp would be a bit of a better daily driver than an F22A with the same power.

Of course, the F20C (which has a lot of the same engineering as the K series) doesn't take much at all to get to that power level, and remain damn near stock feeling.



A 300whp NA K series is fairly easy to build. When the cost of swapping the K series drops a bit, and the installation methods are well documented, the K series will be a very strong swap candidate for the CB chassis. The K series is more common, since it's in damn near EVERY Honda 4 cylinder vehicle, and it dates back to 2000 in its various forms. The aftermarket for the K series is considerable. Seeing as the motor spans so many models, it brings the popular Civic and Integra (RSX) tuning options to the less popular platforms, like the Accord. Displacement ranges from 2.0L to 2.4L in stock form... all perfectly suitable for moving a 2800ln-3000lb Accord. Headswap options make it possible to have a high-flowing K20 head (Type S, Type R... there are a few different ones that were used) and put it on the 2.4L K24 bottom end. The H doesn't really have that option... not as good, anyway. The K headswap is one I would actually support... and most of you already know my stance on H and F series headswaps!


The H22A has ease and price. The K series wins in just about any other category.
However, in this particular niche... ease and price are BIG factors. IMO, based on those things alone, the H still wins. At least for another few years.

[CB7 Sleeper]

Yeah, the H22 at 250whp would be a bit of a better daily driver than an F22A with the same power.

Of course, the F20C (which has a lot of the same engineering as the K series) doesn't take much at all to get to that power level, and remain damn near stock feeling.



A 300whp NA K series is fairly easy to build. When the cost of swapping the K series drops a bit, and the installation methods are well documented, the K series will be a very strong swap candidate for the CB chassis. The K series is more common, since it's in damn near EVERY Honda 4 cylinder vehicle, and it dates back to 2000 in its various forms. The aftermarket for the K series is considerable. Seeing as the motor spans so many models, it brings the popular Civic and Integra (RSX) tuning options to the less popular platforms, like the Accord. Displacement ranges from 2.0L to 2.4L in stock form... all perfectly suitable for moving a 2800ln-3000lb Accord.


The H22A has ease and price. The K series wins in just about any other category.
However, in this particular niche... ease and price are BIG factors. IMO, based on those things alone, the H still wins. At least for another few years.

Exactly, the H wins, for now. I'm sure in the near future, the price of the K series is going to drop, and it will be the equivalent of an H22a swap into a Civic or Teg. There will be mount kits, etc. It'll all be fairly soon.

[deevergote]

it will be the equivalent of an H22a swap into a Civic or Teg.

That's a very good comparison.


Going with that train of thought... The K swap is just as possible, with the same amount of work, into a Civic or Teg. The H22's strength, and one of the reasons that people love the Accord, is that it just drops right in. If you have to buy mount kits, do lots of wiring, get a new ECU setup, buy new axles... Then why not start with a lighter chassis? Why put a K into an Accord when it takes the same amount of effort to put it in a Civic that's 600lbs+ lighter?

The H22 in the CB7 is easy. Easier than the K swap. That will never change. The H will always have that in its favor!

Of course, 200hp cars are pretty lame as far as performance goes these days.

[h22sparkle]

Its honestly about how mucht hat person is willing to spend. Honestly you can go wrong with an h-series but you cant go bad with a k series either. But honestly the K is more money than the h.

If you put dollar for dollar the amount in price of how much your willing to spend the h22 would come out a tad better thant he k. The k-series does have alot of potential but look at the price. Sure youll have more aftermarket support but again look at the price.

The H can do just about the same thing the k-series can for a little bit of money. The main thing that the k has more than the h is more aftermarket support. This is a double edged sword when it comes to the cb7.

Its just easier to do that rather than swap a k-series in and thats less money spent. its anyones guess though when you throw more money into the car the possibilites go up from there. If there was easier ways to get the k-series motor more cheaply and legally with more aftermarket support like motormounts then yeah more swapped cb's would be more abundant.

[Warudakumi]

That's a very good comparison.


Going with that train of thought... The K swap is just as possible, with the same amount of work, into a Civic or Teg. The H22's strength, and one of the reasons that people love the Accord, is that it just drops right in. If you have to buy mount kits, do lots of wiring, get a new ECU setup, buy new axles... Then why not start with a lighter chassis? Why put a K into an Accord when it takes the same amount of effort to put it in a Civic that's 600lbs+ lighter?

The H22 in the CB7 is easy. Easier than the K swap. That will never change. The H will always have that in its favor!

Of course, 200hp cars are pretty lame as far as performance goes these days.

Exactly my thinking! But another thing to look at is, why do the swap when you can probably buy a 02 RSX/Civic Si with a K-motor in it for the price you would be spending on the swap all together? The swap will easily set you back 8-10k in parts and labor although i know some that have accomplished it under 6k. Connections help in terms of parts prices.

Honestly if you love your car that much and want to be different it's cool, but if I wanted to have a K-series I think i'd start with a lighter chassis as well. A CRX with a K24/k20 head can do some nasty embarassing damage to "muscle imports" on the freeway and from a stop. The same setup will make a Accord just quick but not fast... thus pretty much giving you a "H22 swap with a added 6th gear" almost.

Power to weight ratio does wonders.... Look at the J30 swaps into civics....Holy sh#% Now I wish Hasport will just make the damn mounts for our cars. I'd take a J-series before a K if I had a choice for a newage swap into the CB7. More Torque is what the Accord needs. The V6 accord coupe I drive sometimes feels nice even auto. It would be nice to just mash in a CB7 with that feeling. Depending on the year and J-series type and chassis The big CL-S manual guys can do low 14s and high 13.8's with just boltons... so can u imagine a CB7 with this engine? Yup reliable low 12,11s easily I believe simply because we have a lighter chassis. Being slightly heavier than the civic/integra guys, I think it will equal out the weight a little more better to make it more driver friendly.

[h22sparkle]

What would make the cb great is if it had more aftermarlet support in swaps like direct fit motormounts for more swaps,along with axle replacements then it would be glorious.

[PR CB7]

here's the thing
the cb never came w an actual perfomace engine, thats why when you refer to an accord some will look down, that will never change

the pro on that subject is quantity, ex try and count all the cb's you see on the road each day

as for the k and h subject

it sometimes reminds me of the "ZC" on a crx vs a gsr
old tech vs new tech

but really as far as in technology, people will always want bigger and better
import tuner came out with a mag, where they did Variable Cam Timing on a f20c

50+hp 97+ftq

also, i always thought a type-s w a 5-speed would actually be a fair race vs a h22

[PR CB7]

[owequitit]

Architecturally, the K is superior to the H in pretty much every way imaginable. The more you crack into them, the more apparent that becomes.

The DOHC VTEC K series don't really need any help in the head department until around 300WHP NA. So it is just a matter of springs, retainers and cams.

Also, the 300HP level in a K20 is pretty much achievable with a stock IM (the RBC), some cams, springs + retainers and a well designed intake and exhaust system with a tune to go with it. Absolutely nothing exotic is required.

Even Honda in their own CTR engine is making 225HP and about 160 lb/ft of torque. That is 112.5 HP/liter, which is actually very impressive considering the technology that the K series does NOT have.

It is just such an amazing engine from a stock OEM perspective it isn't funny. As usually, Honda builds a really kickass engine and then chokes it down with restrictive intake and exhaust, as well as conservative tuning. The stock bottom end will do 9000-9500 RPM without issue, the stock valve train will do nearly 9,000, and it will easily make power that high with the right simple changes. And, they relish every minute of it. Even to a greater extent than the B series and H series, the K series feels like it just wants another 1500RPM when you slam the rev limit with it being so smooth and so eager.

Boost it and they get insane. 400WHP doesn't seem to be much of an issue on a stock block.

[CB7 Sleeper]

Wonderful analogy my friend.