More Torque??

[Chicano2005]

Is there a way to increase torque on a stock engine??
or in any engine??
I heard that is better to have more torque than HP.

[SuperTuner12010]

Torque is whats going to get you off the line...

Any engine modification would increase tq...intake,header,exhaust all increase torque...

Or getting a V6...the swap is starting to look more and more possible, I mean the motors themselves are cheaper than H22's. Im guessing because theres not too many modifications or want for them yet.I saw a J30 I think go for $9XX.

[Chicano2005]

The more horses you have the less torque you have can you switch that.
more torque and a little less HP

The H22a has like 200 HP and the torque is like 180 So can you increase that torque?

[Kamikaze_ITR]

horsepower is just a factor of torque. the higher you rev the higher the horsepower. engines that make a lot of torque and no horsepower won't rev very high like a hummer and it's 3600rpm redline. engines with no torque and a lot of horsepower rev a lot higher. A CBR600RR makes no torque but churnes out of serious horsepower for a stock 600cc engine but has to rev to 14,00rpms to see those figures.

[owequitit]

There is already tons of discussion on this board.

You can increase one or both. HP is a mathematical function of TQ. TQ does ZERO work though, therefore, under ALL conditions it is actually HP that is moving the car. TQ just develops more HP at a lower RPM.

[Chicano2005]

Oh OK, Thanks

[The G-Man]

The more horses you have the less torque you have can you switch that.
more torque and a little less HP

The H22a has like 200 HP and the torque is like 180 So can you increase that torque?

Torque rating on the H22 is more like 160 ft/lbs not 180 ft/lbs.

[AllWhiteCoupe]

You know the f22a4 is rated at 130Hp and 140Tq.


Thats more tq then Hp.

[Zer0_92EX]

TQ does ZERO work though, therefore, under ALL conditions it is actually HP that is moving the car. TQ just develops more HP at a lower RPM.

so your say the more torque = more horsepower.....
thing something is messed up with that conclusion

from wikipedia...
The concept of torque, also called moment or couple, originated with the studies of Archimedes on levers.

meaning that the torque is movement of the vehicle, horsepower is just the "maximum power output" pusshed out by the engine.

TORQUE IS WHAT MOVES THE CAR! HP IS HOW MUCH POWER IS PUSH OUT WHILE MOVING! DERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR READ A BOOK!

[owequitit]

so your say the more torque = more horsepower.....
thing something is messed up with that conclusion

from wikipedia...
The concept of torque, also called moment or couple, originated with the studies of Archimedes on levers.

meaning that the torque is movement of the vehicle, horsepower is just the "maximum power output" pusshed out by the engine.

TORQUE IS WHAT MOVES THE CAR! HP IS HOW MUCH POWER IS PUSH OUT WHILE MOVING! DERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR READ A BOOK!

Bullshit. I have read more books than you can imagine kiddo.

HP=TQ*RPM/5252

Run some numbers through the math equation and see what happens. Try changing the torque and rpm values independently. If you are half intelligent, you will quickly realize that 1 of 2 things will happen.

1) If you increase the torque at the same RPM, you will make more HP at that RPM.

2) If you leave torque the same and increase the RPM, you will make more HP even though torque stays the same.

You can piss and moan about it all you want. I just proved it mathematically. You will also notice on ANY dyno graph that has a 1:1 scale that TQ and HP ALWAYS meet at 5252 RPM and that is based on what the formula is divided by (5252). Diesels make more torque than HP because they don't typically rev that high. But, as a function of TQ, they ALSO make more HP at every RPM than they would with less TQ. Airplane engines are similar. An IO-360 that is rated at 180HP at 2700 RPM's must produce 350 lb/ft of torque at that RPM to produce that HP.

Hopefully, that wasn't too complicated for you.

P.S. I am well aware of what the definition of torque is. It is a radial force applied around a lever arm, just like the wiki article you quoted says.

Here is the flaw in YOUR logic: Torque simply implies a twisting force. It DOES NOT imply work. I can apply all kinds of torque to a shaft with a lever arm, and if nothing moves, I am doing ZERO work, per the definition of work. It is not until we get movement that we have actual work. Since MOVEMENT (D) = RATE (R) * TIME (T), or D=RT, we NOW have accounted for movement. Which is basically RPMs or Revolutions per minute. This gives us a distance, an amount of energy put in, and thus work completed. So by factoring torque times RPM's, and dividing by the predetermined 5252. This constant is derived from 33,000 lb/ft per minute/ 2 pi (radians per revolution). 1 HP =746W, which is the SI standard unit of "power." The 33,000lb/ft per minute was deterimined arbitrarily by James Watt as the amount of pulling 1 horse could do in one minute. Keep in mind though that arbitrary and meaningless are not the same thing. The foot is an arbitrary measurement, but is not meaningless. It just means that it was chosen randomly as opposed to specifically.

Most people, internet gurus included, don't understand this relationship with torque and HP, and thus they assume that HP is some number that doesn't matter, when in fact, at ANY RPM torque is producing HP and HP is actually doing the work. So if you make more torque at low RPM's, you make more HP at lower RPM's and then you will see better acceleration at lower RPMs.

A dyno graph is basically achieved by measuring TQ at a given point (RPM) running it through the equation listed above, and then giving us a computed HP value. The GOAL is to get as much area under the total curve as possible. This can be done 1 of 2 way, both of which have already been alluded to. We can increase torque at a given RPM (either through displacement or boost), or we can increase the RPMs, which leverages smaller torque over more revolutions, thus increasing HP. This is how an F1 engine makes well over 800 crank HP on regular unleaded pump gas, and also how a muscle car engine can do the same.

Since HP moves a car, that is how a 200HP Honda with similar weight to a 200HP V8 can accelerate at a similar rate, as long as you keep the Honda in its powerband, which tends to be highstrung.

I could REALLY make this complicated and throw in gearing, which basically multiplies torque, and thus HP, and we could have an entirely new discussion.

I would suggest that you read MORE books.

Or you might want to read this too:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/horsepower.htm

[owequitit]

so your say the more torque = more horsepower.....
thing something is messed up with that conclusion

from wikipedia...
The concept of torque, also called moment or couple, originated with the studies of Archimedes on levers.

meaning that the torque is movement of the vehicle, horsepower is just the "maximum power output" pusshed out by the engine.

TORQUE IS WHAT MOVES THE CAR! HP IS HOW MUCH POWER IS PUSH OUT WHILE MOVING! DERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR READ A BOOK!

P.S. If you are going to try to be an internet "Billy Badass" and try to make someone look like an idiot, it would behoove you to know a little bit about the person you are attacking first (a simple search function would have revealed numerous discussions on this before). You might also want to try and present yourself in a more mature manner and use correct grammar, punctuation, and spelling, so as to avoid looking like a complete dumbshit.

[accordaffair]

You can increase torque by increasing the intake velocity

[F20A CB7]

Good info every1, for the dude who said a v6 swap, it is possible, dude on preludepower.com had a bb2 with a v6, same chasis as us so it will fit in our cb.

[bcjammerx]

I think folks get the impression then that torque is then fixed...as in...in makes it seem like you can't have two cars with equal hp at say the same rpm range, but different torque.

As in, how could two cars with the same torque curves have different hp ratings?
Or how could two cars with the same hp ratings at the same rpm have different torque curves.

Course usually all the info is not being looked at...or taken into consideration...or mostly the case...understood

any hoo I think that is where folks tend to lose it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no genious on this stuff, I have some homework to do.

It's really not that hard of an issue though.

Cool site

another cool site

[owequitit]

I think folks get the impression then that torque is then fixed...as in...in makes it seem like you can't have two cars with equal hp at say the same rpm range, but different torque.

As in, how could two cars with the same torque curves have different hp ratings?
Or how could two cars with the same hp ratings at the same rpm have different torque curves.

Course usually all the info is not being looked at...or taken into consideration...or mostly the case...understood

any hoo I think that is where folks tend to lose it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no genious on this stuff, I have some homework to do.

It's really not that hard of an issue though.

Cool site

another cool site

The biggest reason is that people only look at 2 specific numbers. Peak HP and peak torque, and then make assumptions from there.

I will have a couple of cases in point at the end.

Since HP is a derivative of torque, getting the figures at only 1 point (peak), seems logical, but may in fact be flawed. For instance, if an engine makes peak torque at 6000RPM, but makes 90%+ of peak torque all the way from idle to just shy of an 8000RPM redline, it actually has a much broader curve then it would appear to on paper. That is the charachteristic curve of the K series. Yet, it STILL gets derided for being a "torqueless" Honda. Sure there, isn't a lot of total torque, but it certainly comparable to anything of similar displacement.

The problem is that with today's technology, the compromises are disappearing, and yet people cling onto the same comparisons of yore.

Another thing I have been noticing lately is the absolute faith in HP rated numbers. Now, granted, most people don't have a dyno in thier garage to verify HP claims, but I have noticed more and more that companies are underrating stuff. The Ferrari 599GTB and the GTR come to mind. The 599GTB has seen 600WHP in some cases, even though it is rated at 611 CRANK HP. The GTR is nearly as fast as a Z06 until ridiculous speeds, and yet it ONLY has 480HP, and yet weighs almost 1,000 lbs more??? Uh huh, yeah right.

The new TSX is another good example. Everyone is pissing and crying about the fact that it "lost" 4HP to the old car. Yet, on an actual dyno, it not only lays down within 2 peak HP with less than 200 miles on it, it COMPLETELY destroys it everywhere else, with some points gaining almost 20lb/ft and 30HP over the old engine.

Both of those links are awesome, and they touched on some very key issues, most of which I have mentioned before. They both mentioned gearing. Then they mentioned what might happen with various gearing changes. The part they neglected (which I understand was for sake of comparison) was vehicle weight. The super high revving 4 cylinders tend to be in cars that are much lighter, which will ALSO have a profound effect. The 2nd article touched on that at the end, about "torque" being suitable for heavier vehicles.