Timing belt procedure stuck bolts/tools question

[ATLaccord]

Hi all,

I'm trying to change my timing belts and seals. The procedure became necessary because I had a big oil leak after the engine overheated (radiator and thermostat have since been changed).

I got to the point there I should remove the access bolt to the rear balance shaft maintenance hole, but this bolt seems stuck. I soak it with WD40 and tried with a 1/2 inch torque wrench but it looks I'm just destroying the bolt.

Could I do the procedure without locking the rear balance shaft (by relying on the marks on the wheel only)?

What is the best tool to loosen the timing belt tensioner adjusting nut? My problem is there not enough clearance to get either my 1/2 inch or my 3/8 inch socket wrenches on the nut. Or can you lower the engine so much the you could use an extension through the wheel well area?

Thanks for your help, I'm really stuck right now.

[cp[mike]]

that rear balance shaft bolt is nothing more than a 12mm bolt, except it uses a crush washer because its an oil plug... so maybe somebody snugged it down too hard? you could get away without it, just make sure you make some good marks on the gear for it, because otherwise theres NO way to tell. and the drive gear is at a 1:3 ratio to the shaft, so dont let it spin around once, because thatll throw it off.

for the timing adjuster nut, i usually use a flat box wrench with an extension pipe, if necessary. just be very careful, this nut is sometimes very stuck, and very easy to strip! and being stripped would make it much more difficult to access.... so try to use some sort of 6-sided tool, instead of a 12-point. and no, unfortunately even if you lower the motor, you still cant access the bolt from the wheel well.. its one of those get-it-where-it-is sorta things,even though its in a crappy place.



...btw, welcome to cb7tuner!

[batever]

1) *adjusting nut* :I think if you elevate the engine a little you can get a socket on the adjuster nut. (I think--I can't remember if that's how I did it or not) In that case, you can throw a short section of pipe over your breaker bar

you could also use a crows' foot extension on the end of a breaker bar, or just a regular box end or open end wrench. If you can't get enough leverage, take a short section of 2x4 and put it on the end of the wrench, then bang it with another section of 2x4 until the bolt breaks free. That definitely works.

I would choose the combo wrench over the crows foot extension for loosening it because it's easier to keep it aligned on the nut. I used a crows foot to torque it to specs on reassembly though.

2) *access bolt* If you really can't get the access bolt off (make sure you're removing the right thing!) then yeah you cold mark the gear and the housing while the balance shafts belt is still on, so you have a solid point of reference, but it's not as good as locking it in place because those gears turn *very* freely. If you go this route mark it precisely in a place where you can check it with a straightedge--line the straightedge (credit card or something) up against the gear and mark it with a sharpie or wite-out or something, and also on the gear housing.

If the bolt head on the *access* hole is getting destroyed, you could use a Sure-Grip socket to get it out. PB blast the hell out of it first and let it sit overnight, that will make a difference.

Be aware that although it is best to get the harmonic balance shafts aligned correctly, if you mess it up the worst that will happen is your engine will vibrate (I'm told). All they do is balance out the engine vibration.


good luck

[ATLaccord]

Nearly stripped

Thanks for your replies.

Here's what I did:
- I got PB blaster and soaked the access hole nut. I'll see tomorrow if that did it.

- But: I tried to get the tensioner nut loose by putting a 6 sided open combination wrench on the nut and a breaker bar on the other side (through the 12 sided ring on the other end of the wrench). This nearly stripped the nut - I mean it's not entirely gone on all sides, but two of the edges do not look good anymore.

Any ideas how to proceed with the tensioner nut?

[batever]

Thanks for your replies.

Here's what I did:
- I got PB blaster and soaked the access hole nut. I'll see tomorrow if that did it.

- But: I tried to get the tensioner nut loose by putting a 6 sided open combination wrench on the nut and a breaker bar on the other side (through the 12 sided ring on the other end of the wrench). This nearly stripped the nut - I mean it's not entirely gone on all sides, but two of the edges do not look good anymore.

Any ideas how to proceed with the tensioner nut?

make sure you have pb blasted that nut too. I would do that before proceeding. Pull the black rubber sealing washer off over the nut beforehand so the pb can get down to the threads if you haven't already done so. (Also, take the lower timing cover off while you're at it since you'll have to anyway and it will give you better sight of what you're working on. You didn't mention if you'd done that part. [It just pulls off over the nut. It can be a pain to get off unless you've done it before, there's not a lot of clearance--make sure the engine is lowered and don't be afraid to pull on it, and fool around with the angles on it as that can help too.

Try another wrench-yours may have spread a little and you may have better luck with a different wrench. If you get a shorty wrench and use the 2x4 technique, you could use a different set of faces on the nut to turn it
(because you can stick the shorty wrench at a different anglle--although it sounds like you were able to do something similar with the breaker bar--I am assuming it must be a 1/2 inch breaker bar if it fits in that wrench). It may make a difference to impact the wrench with blows (with the 2x4) as opposed to using a steady pull using the wrench-The shock can deliver intermittent force to loosen the nut without exerting so much work (force X distance) that it will deform the metal on the nut, that's why I'm suggesting trying this approach.

Last resort is using a pipe wrench to grip the bolt, that will definitely do the trick but destroy the nut. (If you don't know, a pipe wrench is designed to increase its grip on the fastener as you apply force--assuming you are applying force in the correct direction. It's also designed to grip smooth pipe, so it has aggressive teeth). Some people have used Vise Grips with success if you don't have a pipe wrench.

The nut costs $7 at the dealership and is a special order probably (takes a couple days).

You could also just file the edges of the nut down to the next mm size by putting it in a vise and taking an equal number of file strokes on each face of the nut.

Other people have suggested welding a nut onto the end of the existing nut, thus providing a facets to grip. I am assuming you don't have welding equipment though.

If you take the lower timing cover off first (So you don't melt the cover of course) you could try just using a butane torch on the nut and getting it as hot as you can, then letting it cool. Or getting it hot as you can, then putting some paraffing wax down on it where the bolt threads are. An old machinists trick I hear, which I've never actually used.

Good luck

[92bently]

prolly striping these bolts because of cheap tools mayb...what kind of tools are u using?cheaper tools expand when u pull on em hard, causing it to slip off the bolt and round it...

[batever]

prolly striping these bolts because of cheap tools mayb...what kind of tools are u using?cheaper tools expand when u pull on em hard, causing it to slip off the bolt and round it...

I don't know about the OP, but it's true, my tools are not super high quality, mostly just medium quality stuff I bought at Autozone or my local parts store--not like SK or Snap On. I have sometimes wondered at the looseness of fit on some of them. Even Craftsman these days is not super great. With sockets it doesn't seem super important, but wrenches are another matter.

I have seen some *old* Craftsman wrenches that are super solid--like 25% more metal around the working end. They don't make em like that anymore!

what would you recommend as a good brand of combo wrench, also a crowsfoot set, for when I replace my existing wrenches? I cant' justify the BEST tool, but maybe one level down.

Thanks!

[batever]

re: the access nut, some other points:

as i recall you may need to use a 6" extension and a socket on it. If you have to use a lot of force on it, support the extension with something right where it joins your ratchet or breaker bar. Like a jackstand head or your floor jack if it's free.

Also, again, you can try whacking the breaker bar or wrench whatever with a section of 2x4. Impacts can loosen the bonds without overstraining the bolt head in some cases. (In fact, that's how impact tools work, just at a much higher rate of speed. That's why impact tools don't tend to strip bolts, because the impact is intermittent and doesn't force the socket around the bolt head and round it) . If it is supported by something where the extension joins the breaker bar, almost all of your torque will be delivered to the bolt, because the extension wil stay in alignment with the bolt and your downward pressure will be efficiently converted to rotational force.

this is a main principle to applying lots of force with hand tools and an extension--set it up so the tool is supported to stay in alignment with the fastener. Use either a jackstand, a cinder block, a floor jack hopped up to the right height, or a combination, to support the extension as close to the breaker bar as you can get it.

Recently I retorqued my crankshaft pulley bolt using my floor jack, with two scraps of 2x4 stacked on top, and using a socket on top of that to act as a smooth load bearing for the extension to lay on.. Sounds sketchy, but I was impatient, the stuff was lying around, and it worked perfectly.

I have also done it by putting a jackstand on top of a cinder block to gain the needed height, supporting the extension on the jackstand head.

Normally you wouldn't need to do this with the access bolt, but who knows who fastened that thing down last time and how they did it.

BTW, how are you planning on getting the crankshaft bolt off? Do you have a strong impact gun, or are you using hand tools? If you don't have a 50mm pulley holder, you should think about getting one. Amazon is a good source.

[batever]

I think you are better off using the closed end of the wrench on the adjusting bolt instead of the open end, as it will grip around all six facets instead of just two. the reason those corners rounded would be a combination of poor tool fit on the fastener and the fact that all the force was bearing on two corners of the bolt head. Surrounding the fastener on all sides with a tool is a better scenario whenever you are trying to break it free as it spreads out the force across the faces evenly.

then use a section of 2x4 on the end of the wrench like a punch, and hammer that with another section of 2X4 to get enough force to the tool.

the wrench may stick to the nut, as it's already rounded as you say, but it probably won't strip it more if you do it like that.

[ATLaccord]

Thanks, I will try again with the tensioner bolt tomorrow.

I finally got the access hole bolt off. PB blaster helped. It was missing the crush washer, which might explain why it was so stuck...

[alb_accord]

i hate that adjuster bolt. i think honda did it on a very cheap fucking metal lol....

when i did the timing belt on my white ex i had the same problem. i ended up using vicegrips and used an adjuster bolt from a 95 accord.

good luck and take ur time with it.

[ATLaccord]

Heureka!

I got the adjuster bolt loose. What worked in the end was a stub combination wrench (actually the 12 sided round end on the bolt) and using a long piece of wood (3 feet or so) and hammering it from above.

I have the belts off now, and I need to get the camshaft sprocket off to get the seal out (it looks like the camshaft seal was the leaking one). What's the best way to prevent the camshaft from turning? Should I reinstall the timing belt for that? But I also don't have a crankshaft holder tool, I used an impact wrench to get the crankshaft bolt off.

Also what's the best way to get the seals out without damaging anything? The crankshaft seal more or less fell out on its own. Is that normal?

Other Observations: it looks like the crankshaft is off by 1/2 teeth (basically the mark on the engine housing points to the next "valley" from the marked tooth). Is that still OK or a problem?

When do you need to replace the tensioners? They are full of oil, but otherwise look good, same actually goes for the belts.

Thanks again

[batever]

super! glad you got the adjuster nut off off. 2x4s are our friends, that is for sure.

on removing the camshaft pulley bolt,

to be safe, I would put the timing belt back on when loosening and tightening the camshaft pulley bolt. that way the camshaft and the crankshaft will stay in alignment if the camshaft pulley moves. And since you have an impact wrench, use that to loosen it. If you are using a manual torque wrench to torque it on to spec. (or you are using manual tools to remove it), maybe tie a rope to the camshaft pulley to secure it, securing it to someplace solid and in line with the pulley.

You could secure the camshaft pulley with rope or with a long bar through it wedged into the chassis on one side and secured with rope on the other. or some such contraption. YOu could also use a rope passed thru the passenger cabin and looped around so each end ties onto one end of A breaker bar that is tied thru the pulley. Use a trucker's hitch or something to adjust the length and tension of the rope, and use multiple half hitches or a timberline hitch on each end of the breaker bar. or forget the breaker bar and pass the rope directy thru the camshaft pulley. Leave the timing belt on to prevent disaster if something slips.

When you are tightening the camshaft pulley it would be easier, just pass a rope over the front grill and to the camshaft pulley.

If you were doing the procedure with the timing belt off, secure the camshaft pulley from both front and back to prevent movement in either direction. I would advise only doing those operations with the timing belt on though as I'm not sure how many degrees of safe rotation there are in the camshaft pulley when the camshaft is stationary/not lined up with the camshaft via the timing belt.

Caveat: I have never removed the camshaft pulley myself, but I thought about doing it last time I was inside the engine covers and that's how I was thinking about doing it.



**belts--if they are oil soaked you should probably replace them with original Honda ones. That's what i'm told, i don't know exactly why, whether it's because they get weaker with the oil on them or because they get slippery.

**timing belt tensioner pulley /bal shaft tensioner pulleys--oil won't affect them, but if they have been on for 100K miles it would be prudent to replace them as if they go. REplacing them means you won't have to worry about them in the future. that being said, I used my old ones and will just keep an eye/ear to them.

**crankshaft is off 1/2 tooth--(did you mean, camshaft is off by 1/2 tooth?) I think it's probably fine, mine is too but I haven't restarted the engine since I did the job yet. Others may chime in, but as far as I can tell you can only get so close with the alignment of the pulleys, as the belt moves in one tooth increments and one tooth increments only. So if your engine was running fine and was 1/2 tooth off at the crankshaft or camshaft when it was at tension, you are probably good if you reinsstall it so it comes out the same way. make a note of how it was (and what direction it was off) so you have reference when you reinstall a new belt.

**removing the seals--I believe you just have to be careful and use a pick or screwdriver. Don't touch or scratch the bores or the shafts with the business end of whatever tool you are using to pry them out with..

**crankshaft seal fell out on its own--sounds unusual to me. The seals have to fit tight to seal. you must have had quite a leak from the crankshaft.

make sure to press the new seals in square and not too far--measure the depth of existing ones to see how far they are set in. (of course, you can't do that w/ the crankshaft seal because it already fell out!)


good luck

[ATLaccord]

**belts
So basically stuff like the autozone brand is not good? The ones that were on are Conti, btw. and show no damage as far as I can see.

**tensioners. I don't really know how long the tensioners have been on. They are a Japanese make so maybe they are original. I only know that the belts were changed once before.

**Crankshaft off 1/2 tooth. I really mean the crankshaft. I was only able to see that after the two other pulleys in front of it were off. Camshaft marks and the mark on the flywheel are fine. Although with the mark on the flywheel, I'm not really 100% certain, as you can look at it from different angles.

**Crankshaft seal. It did not really fell out, but was very easy to remove with very little force, definitely not a snug fit.

Thanks

[batever]

**belts
So basically stuff like the autozone brand is not good? The ones that were on are Conti, btw. and show no damage as far as I can see.

I dunno, it's the timing belt and if it goes your engine goes. Not knowing a lot about the technical aspects of belts, I go for the "approved" or w *safe* brand. Everyone says "original Honda part, original Honda part" so I echoed that. Probably if you make sure to check them in time any decent brand would do.


**tensioners.

well, if you're up at 200k and you're planning on keeping the vehicle replacing the tensioners might be a good idea. I got impatient and just used my old ones with the awareness that I can go back in if I start hearing squealing or whatever. If the tensioner totally seizes it could cause problems, but again, for a handy person who's aware of his car, if they are rotating smoothly you could put them back in and just be aware that they've got 200K miles on them or whatever. By putting the old ones in you are gambling on the potential cost of your time (if you have to go in again) versus the cost of buying a new part.

**Crankshaft off 1/2 tooth. I really mean the crankshaft. I was only able to see that after the two other pulleys in front of it were off. Camshaft marks and the mark on the flywheel are fine. Although with the mark on the flywheel, I'm not really 100% certain, as you can look at it from different angles.

again, well you are probably fine. As it is, your car was working fine, right? the engine was running right. So make a note of how it now is and you'll know, if you are off by the same amount after tensioning the new belt, you will be fine.

re: the mark on the flywheel, as long as you are on cyl one and the white mark on the flywheel is basically lined up with the mark on the flywheel housing, you are in the right place. Proof of that is that the camshaft pulley has the "up" on top and the alignment mark is in the right place. Ultimate proof would be that you take a feeler guage and feel the valve lash. if you can get the gauge in between the valve and the rocker arm on both exhaust and intake sides for cyl 1, your are in the right place for the timing belt replacement. (if you can feel the space, the valves are fully closed, up and away from the piston).The "up" mark/word on the camshaft will move 90 degrees c-cl and match up with the valve head to set the valves for TDC of the next cylinder in sequence (cyl3), then another 90 degrees (facing down) for cyl 4, then a final 90 degrees (lined up w/ the right side of the cyl head) for cyl 2 if you didn't know. I believe the crankshaft moves 180 degrees for every 90 degrees of camshaft turn. good to know if you are in there with the belts off. The moral of the story is, don't let that camshaft move too far off position under wrench force (more than a 2 teeth or so I'd say) with the belts off because then the valves will start to open towards the piston.and the piston in cyl 1 is sitting up as high as possible. Which is why when removing the camshaft pulley bolt, put the timing belt back on as insurance--it will keep things in coordination if the camshaft pulley turns (because your ropes or whatever didn't secure it well enough).


re: looking at the timing mark on the camshaft: line it up with a straightedge across the valve head and protruding along the edge of the pulley. (I used a cut up strip of credit card that I laid along the head). Then you can line it up *exactly* and see how the crankshaft pulley lines up with it, before you disassemble, and you have a more solid reference when you re-line up the pulleys for alignment when you put the timing belt on.

When you tension the belts and check the alignment, you will need to torque the pulley bolt on with your impact wrench before you can move the crankshaft counterclockwise to tension the belt and check the alignment. If you have a pulley holder you can do it without torquing the nut on, which is handy, but not a super big deal though I guess.

Before taking the belts off, I would consider looking at the pulley and making a clearly visible mark on the engine housing and the crankshaft pulley that represents the pulley being lined up dead north. Then make another mark (maybe with an "A" for actual next to it) that represents how it was actually lined up when you disassembled the thing. So you will be able to see the theoretical perfect alignment mark, as well as the "in practice" alignment mark, when the pulley is on. The reason this is good is that you don't have the pulley holding tool (which you can use to turn the crankshaft without putting the crankshaft bolt on) so to turn the pulley for tensioning you will have to use your impact wrench to torque the pulley bolt on. In doing so, the crankshaft will shift a small amount. And with the pulley on you can't see the alignment marks on the timing belt driving gear. So put some marks on the pulley itself.


Also, when you are retorquing the crank bolt for final reassembly, if you have the pulley tool you can be more sure that you are delivering 189 ft lbs to the bolt by using a manual torque wrench. If your impact wrench delivers around 200 ft lbs that should be close enough, though.

When doing the final torque on the crankshaft pulley bolt, the manual calls for putting a little engine oil on the bolt threads and the facing flange of the bolt, but not on the big washer. Then torque it on. That is the instruction for using a manual torque wrench and a holding tool. I would probably use the oil for an impact wrench as well and try to set the wrench as close to 200 ft lbs as I could manage. (I know with the impact wrench it is a matter of some guesswork).

good luck!