hows is this port n polish job?

[owequitit]

All those variables you posted have very little effect on track times, wind and intake temps being the most important. The times won't change much, on the same track from a 10*F drop in temp. Maybe .3, if you're lucky. Tire pressure changes have more of an effect than the rest of the variables you listed.

I'm not back peddling, you're trying to put words in my mouth. I didn't say my header would even out perform anything. It would be safe to assume it will since I'm going with a simple design, the most emphasis being at and after the secondaries. Which is where all aftermarket headers on f22's have a choke point. Now, I'm not making outlandish claims, or saying my products will perform so damn awesome so buy them for an incredible amount of money, like Bisi is. Those two claims are on 2 completely different levels.

Why don't you tell Bisi to put up or shut up? Since he is not saying anything different than what I'm saying, according to you.

.3 would be worth a ~6HP error on the dyno. And yet I am to believe that isn't significant? I don't think so. Especially not when the total gain of what you build is likely to be less than 12HP. That would be a 50% error, which is 3wholly unacceptable. That is VERY significant. Then, how do you PROVE that it was the header and not the driver, or some other variable? You can't. You can only speculate and provide opinions, which is what you bash everyone else for doing.

I have already said that in order for me to buy into his claims, I need some kind of proof. Don't disagree with you there. What we are having an issue over is your insistence that he perform to one set of standards, while you perform to another, by weaseling your way out of verifying by the same methods you kick and scream for others to use. Also, the main disagreement we are having about it is the defamatory and unprofessional way in which you go about it.

[d112crzy]

And why is that an issue to you? You're not buying anything from me.

And I'm not refusing to perform to my own standards, I simply said I probably wouldn't waste my time doing it considering it's not going to be a header that will be out on the market. THAT right there is the difference. He's advertising products, I'm not. Who cares what my product makes? If I want to sell it, I WILL provide dyno sheets. No ifs ands or buts about it.

Quit shifting my words around.

[owequitit]

And why is that an issue to you? You're not buying anything from me.

And I'm not refusing to perform to my own standards, I simply said I probably wouldn't waste my time doing it considering it's not going to be a header that will be out on the market. THAT right there is the difference. He's advertising products, I'm not. Who cares what my product makes? If I want to sell it, I WILL provide dyno sheets. No ifs ands or buts about it.

Quit shifting my words around.

It matters to me because you are running around the community that I care about defaming everything you are jealous of with nothing tangible in return to back it up.

Not only is it detrimental to the community because people might believe the BS you are spewing, but it is detrimental to the community because if the people who believe the BS you are spewing happen to not buy product because of it, then the people like Bisimoto and ESP.net and the others go elsewhere, and we lose perfectly good opportunities for good parts that we don't have for the CB and that you aren't providing either. Therefore, your bullshit is as unnecessary as mine. Do you remember the conversation we had two weeks ago? Here I am. I keep my promises. My promise was to chase you around exposing your bullshit until you either quit blowing smoke, or leave the other vendors alone, or interact in a legitmate manner. Every thread, every post, every link. That is my guarantee to you. I am perfectly willing to get banned for it if need be.

I am here to provide a counterbalance to your un-proven claims of whatever it is you think you have proven. You cry out for other people to provide substantiation, and then attack it as being flawed, when really you are simply doing the exact same thing they are. The difference is it benefits you, so you think it is OK. It isn't, and I am going to continue to counterbalance it until you start to provide real proof, real substantiation or back the fuck off. ~6HP margin of error is unacceptable. Period. With your suggested method of "proof" you can't do it, so I am counterbalancing just in case someone decides to read this thread. That way, if they don't know better, it will hopefully get the thought process started.

This isn't Honda-Tech and we don't just baselessly run around flaming those things we are most jealous of just because we want to prove we have big nuts.

I had no problem with your questioning the validity based on lack of dyno results. However, you then went on and on about how it was not worth it, blah, blah, blah, and then proceeded to jump on the nuts of high tech auto's potentially proposed header that was not much cheaper, and has even less known about it, just because. Ultimately, psycholigically, you are currently exhibiting overcompensation and projection, which are classic signs of jealousy.

I am not shifting your words around. You brag about how you are going to build headers, and they will make power, and then you go onto try to explain that you don't need a dyno because a track is accurate enough. I am telling you that you aren't being very dilligent about it, because the potential margin of error is larger than your entire power gain, which is unacceptable from ANY standpoint.

[d112crzy]

So my questioning of peoples products is bs now? I never said anyones products were trash, only stated they aren't worth the gains. And most of the time, I make sure to put "IMO".

BTW, a 6whp gain WHERE? Like I said, just because a dyno shows a gain, doesn't mean it will perform better at the track. How do we know when it's not a driver error? When the driver pulls consistent times back to back, day to day. Enough time at the track will let you know if a certain, uncontrollable variable caused your slower or faster time. Great thing for me, I've been to that track(and driven) more than a few miles.

I don't make any claims, because I know I can't back them up because I don't have the money to. Please, show where I made a claim, and I'll show you where YOU twisted my words and turned them into something else to fit your argument.

I'm definitely not jealous of anyone's achievements. I am jealous, however, of their facilities and tools.

[d112crzy]

I had no problem with your questioning the validity based on lack of dyno results. However, you then went on and on about how it was not worth it, blah, blah, blah, and then proceeded to jump on the nuts of high tech auto's potentially proposed header that was not much cheaper, and has even less known about it, just because. Ultimately, psycholigically, you are currently exhibiting overcompensation and projection, which are classic signs of jealousy.

How was I jumping on there nuts? Because I was interested and wanted to see it get made? I didn't mention a damn thing about Bisi's header in that thread until after others did.

You know I've bashed on ESP's products before, but I'd buy Bisi's header before I bought their header.

I am definitely no jealous. They aren't taking anything away from me. That is when I start to get jealous. I recommend esp's traction bars to everyone, and I recommend a TON of Bisi products to MY customers.

If I was jealous, wouldn't I be doing everything in my power to not give them business?

[J-specCb4]

u guys need to get laid or something. lol

[KeeleDesign]

It matters to me because you are running around the community that I care about defaming everything you are jealous of with nothing tangible in return to back it up.

Not only is it detrimental to the community because people might believe the BS you are spewing, but it is detrimental to the community because if the people who believe the BS you are spewing happen to not buy product because of it, then the people like Bisimoto and ESP.net and the others go elsewhere, and we lose perfectly good opportunities for good parts that we don't have for the CB and that you aren't providing either. Therefore, your bullshit is as unnecessary as mine. Do you remember the conversation we had two weeks ago? Here I am. I keep my promises. My promise was to chase you around exposing your bullshit until you either quit blowing smoke, or leave the other vendors alone, or interact in a legitmate manner. Every thread, every post, every link. That is my guarantee to you. I am perfectly willing to get banned for it if need be.

I am here to provide a counterbalance to your un-proven claims of whatever it is you think you have proven. You cry out for other people to provide substantiation, and then attack it as being flawed, when really you are simply doing the exact same thing they are. The difference is it benefits you, so you think it is OK. It isn't, and I am going to continue to counterbalance it until you start to provide real proof, real substantiation or back the fuck off. ~6HP margin of error is unacceptable. Period. With your suggested method of "proof" you can't do it, so I am counterbalancing just in case someone decides to read this thread. That way, if they don't know better, it will hopefully get the thought process started.

This isn't Honda-Tech and we don't just baselessly run around flaming those things we are most jealous of just because we want to prove we have big nuts.

I had no problem with your questioning the validity based on lack of dyno results. However, you then went on and on about how it was not worth it, blah, blah, blah, and then proceeded to jump on the nuts of high tech auto's potentially proposed header that was not much cheaper, and has even less known about it, just because. Ultimately, psycholigically, you are currently exhibiting overcompensation and projection, which are classic signs of jealousy.

I am not shifting your words around. You brag about how you are going to build headers, and they will make power, and then you go onto try to explain that you don't need a dyno because a track is accurate enough. I am telling you that you aren't being very dilligent about it, because the potential margin of error is larger than your entire power gain, which is unacceptable from ANY standpoint.

this reminds me of a conversation I too encountered with him, and I couldn't agree more with this statement.

[ric3rboi23]

statement.

that was more like a book :O

[tootall]

Cant we all just get along...

[wed3k]

Jose can be harsh at times but I tend to side with him. It's because we actually build motors, not just talk about them.

[owequitit]

So my questioning of peoples products is bs now? I never said anyones products were trash, only stated they aren't worth the gains. And most of the time, I make sure to put "IMO".

Whose twisting words now?

My statement was very clearly this:

I had no problem with your questioning the validity based on lack of dyno results. However, you then went on and on about how it was not worth it, blah, blah, blah, and then proceeded to jump on the nuts of high tech auto's potentially proposed header that was not much cheaper, and has even less known about it, just because. Ultimately, psycholigically, you are currently exhibiting overcompensation and projection, which are classic signs of jealousy.

BTW, a 6whp gain WHERE? Like I said, just because a dyno shows a gain, doesn't mean it will perform better at the track. How do we know when it's not a driver error? When the driver pulls consistent times back to back, day to day. Enough time at the track will let you know if a certain, uncontrollable variable caused your slower or faster time. Great thing for me, I've been to that track(and driven) more than a few miles.

1) A .3 error, which you just claimed was acceptable:

All those variables you posted have very little effect on track times, wind and intake temps being the most important. The times won't change much, on the same track from a 10*F drop in temp. Maybe .3, if you're lucky. Tire pressure changes have more of an effect than the rest of the variables you listed.

Mathematically, that works out to ROUGHLY 2-3HP per .1 seconds in a stock CB7. So, if you are willing to accept a .3 error, then you are in effect accepting a roughly 6-9HP error, because that is how much a .3 is going to affect your calculations. Considering you are impressed with 10WHP gains, and may accept less, how is that you can justify a margin of error that runs between 50-90%? The only possible answers are you are either making shit up, or you don't know better.

2) Unless you are John Force and can tree and launch within several hundredths of second repeatedly, then the driver is a significant source of error. Since you are not John Force, I am pretty sure you can't be as consistent as him.

3) Assuming you were John Force, all of the other variables could still easily cause a significant margin of error.

I don't make any claims, because I know I can't back them up because I don't have the money to. Please, show where I made a claim, and I'll show you where YOU twisted my words and turned them into something else to fit your argument.

See, this is where we have an issue. You are right, you don't make any claims. Instead you ceaselessly bash other peoples' gains, which in effect says "those gains are not impressive" at which point you go on to talk about how much you know, or what you can do. It isn't an overt statement, but it IS implied. By making the statement above, and trying to play innocent, you are essentially acting like the 5 year old child that tells his parents a lie, thinking they aren't smart enough to figure it out. The problem with that is that only about 30% of what you communicate comes from your mouth, or in this case, your keyboard. But you are in effect making veiled, defamatory comments while trying to support your own ego, by bashing others' achievements and then trying to build your agenda, by inserting your snide remarks and the pretending that you are only "questioning." You aren't fooling me. If the statements were "innocent" they would be presented more like they have been in the last day or so, which is respectful, tactful, and not slanted, biased, or implying something a mile away. There is a way to question, and then there is the way you have been doing it. Unfortunately, my experience with knowing more about how people are working than they do raises a bunch of red flags in your behavior. I could be wrong, but based on the consistency of your actions, I don't believe I am. I also don't believe I am because you have proven that you can have an intelligent conversation, and be mindful and respectful when you so choose. As such, I will start to back off, as long as you maintain the mutual respect towards those who do what you wish to do.

I'm definitely not jealous of anyone's achievements. I am jealous, however, of their facilities and tools.

How would you be jealous of the facilities and not the accomplishments those facilities allow? As it is currently, you really aren't even TRYING to do things scientifically (which is what those facilities allow), because you just told me that an unacceptable level of error was OK.

Also, rather than be jealous of those facilities, you should be formulating a plan to make those facilities happen for you, which is what they all did. Even if it means doing something you don't like to do temporarily. Shit, you can build a lot of the stuff to get started on your own.

[owequitit]

Jose can be harsh at times but I tend to side with him. It's because we actually build motors, not just talk about them.

Yeah, you're completely right. I just talk about them. That is probably why your shit leaks, and mine doesn't.

[d112crzy]

I may not have the facilities, but I do have a lot of equipment. No big machinery, yet. I AM doing shit to work myself there. Most of my work comes from locals, not the internet so just because I don't post it doesn't mean I'm not doing it. How can I not be jealous of their achievements? Because I'm not. There is no rule that says I have to be jealous of everything. I admire their achievements.

And you're right, I can have an intelligent conversation, and be mindful and respectful. But my reasonings and thoughts behind those words are still the same as if I were being my normal self. I have the same view of business as DH racing and a few other, cut-throat companies have. If I lose customers over it, good. I probably wouldn't have liked them anyways if I met them in person. They've lost plenty of customers because of their attitude, but they're still in business and creating great products.

There is more than 1 way to handle a business, and I chose my way because it's what works for my goals in life. I'm not trying to become and industry leader, or anything near that. Why should I have to settle for a set of rules I don't agree with?

Scott, I'm not sure how you're doing your math, but it's wrong. So you're saying, that if a cb7 had 130whp, and gained 6-7hp, it will increase .3 in the 1/4? What if I was at 300whp, would a gain of 6-7whp still have the same .3 increase? I'll answer it for you, no it won't.

No, .3 second is not acceptable, I never said it was because I was busy trying to let you know of how meaningless the variables you've mentioned are. I said they MIGHT cause a change of .3 in times. It's a VERY strong might.

I've managed to do 4 back to back runs that were within .05 seconds of each other. This was in a span of 3 hours, where temperature dropped about 8*F within those 3 hours. This is once I get used to the track, of course. I've gone back on a different day, with 20* hotter temps and ran .1 slower back to back. Nothing else being changed, it's safe to say the temps cuased the slower times. I also don't run a Pro tree, so that is a HUGE difference when it comes to being consistent as r/t doesn't come into play with your final e/t.

This was on an FI car that ambient temps have more of an effect than they would on an NA motor.

It's funny you mention John Force, he has quite a bit of attitude himself and doesn't give a shit what people think about he portrays himself and look at where he's at.

[owequitit]

I may not have the facilities, but I do have a lot of equipment. No big machinery, yet. I AM doing shit to work myself there. Most of my work comes from locals, not the internet so just because I don't post it doesn't mean I'm not doing it. How can I not be jealous of their achievements? Because I'm not. There is no rule that says I have to be jealous of everything. I admire their achievements.

Your behavior says differently. If you weren't jealous, you wouldn't act like it. Typically people do not flame things they admire.

And you're right, I can have an intelligent conversation, and be mindful and respectful. But my reasonings and thoughts behind those words are still the same as if I were being my normal self. I have the same view of business as DH racing and a few other, cut-throat companies have. If I lose customers over it, good. I probably wouldn't have liked them anyways if I met them in person. They've lost plenty of customers because of their attitude, but they're still in business and creating great products.

There is more than 1 way to handle a business, and I chose my way because it's what works for my goals in life. I'm not trying to become and industry leader, or anything near that. Why should I have to settle for a set of rules I don't agree with?

Being a dick doesn't make you better. Frankly, most of the time you can find better products than those companies you mentioned, with better results. And you don't have to put up with the bullshit for the money you are spending. The funny thing about me is that I am more than happy to take MY money to someone who wants it. I don't mind brutal honesty, but I don't expect to be talked down to either.

Scott, I'm not sure how you're doing your math, but it's wrong. So you're saying, that if a cb7 had 130whp, and gained 6-7hp, it will increase .3 in the 1/4? What if I was at 300whp, would a gain of 6-7whp still have the same .3 increase? I'll answer it for you, no it won't.

Hand picking again. Go back and read the original statement. I very clearly made a statement that as you go faster the relative HP would be greater. Of course that would have involved you reading, and comprehending.

Besides, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. A .3 second error at 300WHP is going to be a much higher HP. So really, all you are doing by accepting that same error at a higher speed/power is INCREASING your margin of error.

No, .3 second is not acceptable, I never said it was because I was busy trying to let you know of how meaningless the variables you've mentioned are. I said they MIGHT cause a change of .3 in times. It's a VERY strong might.

Your quoted statement said differently.

I've managed to do 4 back to back runs that were within .05 seconds of each other. This was in a span of 3 hours, where temperature dropped about 8*F within those 3 hours. This is once I get used to the track, of course. I've gone back on a different day, with 20* hotter temps and ran .1 slower back to back. Nothing else being changed, it's safe to say the temps cuased the slower times. I also don't run a Pro tree, so that is a HUGE difference when it comes to being consistent as r/t doesn't come into play with your final e/t.

This was on an FI car that ambient temps have more of an effect than they would on an NA motor.

It is still a significant error, especially at faster speeds. It is not a replacement for a dyno necessarily, which is what you billed it as.

It's funny you mention John Force, he has quite a bit of attitude himself and doesn't give a shit what people think about he portrays himself and look at where he's at.

Just because he did, doesn't mean you will.

[d112crzy]

It is still a significant error, especially at faster speeds. It is not a replacement for a dyno necessarily, which is what you billed it as.



Just because he did, doesn't mean you will.

Learn to quote, noob.

I never said it was a replacement. I said it was a true test of performance.

But you still haven't answered my question. Where are you putting this 6hp figure at in the power curve? I can make a cam that would only provide a 6whp gain up top, but a 10whp loss in the mid range. People won't see the loss, they will see the 6whp gain in the top end and call it a great cam.

Slap that cam on(tuned), go to the track and you'll run a slower time than you did with the previous cam, given you're a consistent enough driver. The other variables will NOT have anywhere near as an effect as you think they do.

If it does, then the variables that changed from the previous track times will be listed. As they normally are, as they are part of many's excuses and or reasons for the out come.

And you don't know if I will or not. I'm young as fuck, I have a long time to achieve what he has.

Please show where I've flamed any of the people we're referring to? I've harshly questioned their products. Completely different from flaming. I'm not your typical person that will always admire an achievement without questioning.

No one said anything about being better.