Announcement

Collapse

Please DO NOT Post In The General Section

From this point on until otherwise briefed, posting in the general section of Performance Tech is prohibited. The only thing to remain here will be the stickies. We would just delete this section, but that would cause unintended results.


The majority of the threads created can appropriately be placed in one of the Performance Tech sub-forums or Technical; and the posting of them here is detrimental to the activity of said forums. If you have any questions about where you need to place your thread PM me or one of the other mods.


For the most part you all have caught on without this post, but there have been a few habitual offenders that forced me to say this.


Everyone will get a couple of warnings from here on out, after that I just start deleting threads.

Again if you have any questions, PM me or one of the other mods.
See more
See less

New kind of flywheel

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    New kind of flywheel

    Are there any super-serious tuners here... as in compete at a national level, and willing to spend 20 grand to research an idea?

    Maybe somebody has already thought of this, and the mod I'm thinking about has already been banned or put in a special class... so be it...

    Fast93Accord said something in another thread that gave me this idea. His statement was "Dont go too lite with your flywheel weight if you plan to drag race". So I started thinking about the benefits of going light or heavy and how that would affect drag racing...

    Which got me to thinking...

    For that initial bump from a standing start to getting the car rolling, waiting to get off the drag start line, a racer revs the engine, this stores energy in the flywheel which transfers to the wheels when you pop the clutch. The heavier the flywheel, the more stored energy, the bigger that initial boost.

    But after a certain point from that initial bump, the weight of the flywheel becomes a drag on acceleration once the engine becomes the main source of acceleration (or would it be once the flywheel is no longer helping with the acceleration?). From that point on, you want the lightest flywheel which will keep the engine turning smoothly at idle - so all the engine's energy goes to accelerating the wheels, not the flywheel.

    So I'm thinking... can you have both?

    Could you make a two piece flywheel... one 8 pound section which acts like a normal flywheel, always attached, and another 16 (or heavier) pound section which is coupled to the drivetrain only for that first second or so from a standing start and spins totally free of the drivetrain after that so it's no drag on the system.

    If you got really funky... at the point where that extra weight becomes more of a burden than a help, it's still spinning and has stored energy... a genius might be able to figure out some kind of brake system which stops that heavier portion and transfers/adds that energy to the drivetrain. Maybe something like an automatic transmission in reverse. As far as ways to tie it in, an idea could probably be stolen from marine engines or anything which uses more than one engine tied to the same output. Sure, this would only give you a couple of hundredths of a second, but that might be a big difference at top levels.

    Obviously this wouldn't be good for much other than drag racing where you're revving the engine way up to get a jump off the line... although I suppose you could shrink the concept down for street use.

    Hey, if this hasn't been done already, and somebody out there makes some bank off my idea, could you cut me in for a percentage?

    It's been almost 20 years since I read a book about this stuff in high school, so I hope I remember the scientific part of it.
    Last edited by do2mind; 12-03-2006, 05:35 PM.

    #2
    too complicated for not that great of a cause to even cosider it.you would need some kind of centrifical hold down mechanism that seperates the other part at certain rpm....

    ILBB
    People I have dealt with in this board- Smseagren83,d112crzy, Idrivealude, aznpnoyracer, wed3k, dinertime, HF22T, MRX, Dc2lewd, yeamans17, bruno8747, tn_accords, king james, starchland, yardiexd40

    Mk3 Supra Member #2

    Originally posted by DarkShadow707
    The world needs to be reset.

    Comment


      #3
      The only way I can see this working, is if you filled the flywheel up with fluid. The fluid then would have to be able to transfer itself to remotely stored area, away from the rotating assembly. In other words, this is going to be incredibly difficult to pull off considering it may not be physically possible.

      To ILBB,
      Pretty much, the weight can't even be on the rotating shaft, because in essence it will still be turning a 16lb flywheel. However, I completely agree with you.

      Comment


        #4
        yeah but what if you had a bearing the bearing would spin an the other part wouldnt...or barely spin.

        still not worth it to even attempt IMO

        ILBB
        People I have dealt with in this board- Smseagren83,d112crzy, Idrivealude, aznpnoyracer, wed3k, dinertime, HF22T, MRX, Dc2lewd, yeamans17, bruno8747, tn_accords, king james, starchland, yardiexd40

        Mk3 Supra Member #2

        Originally posted by DarkShadow707
        The world needs to be reset.

        Comment


          #5
          i was thinking of something similar but have pockets that are spiral shaped (in the flywheel), that can somehow be filled with mercury. if something that is spinning is unbalanced, mercury goes to the exact part that the object needs more weight, and automatically balances it. its also really heavy, so including or removing it would make a huge difference. the spiral shape would time it with the centrifical forces behind it. i kind of doubt this would be possible though, or affordable for the amount of good it does. its a good thought though

          another idea would be a one time shot, have pegs in the flywheel made of iron. when you dont need the weight anymore, you could use a type of electromagnet, so you could pull out the pegs by flicking a switch. then again i doubt you want the possibility of loosing a peg in a tranny

          94 GSR | 93 GSR

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Ilikebigbutts
            yeah but what if you had a bearing the bearing would spin an the other part wouldnt...or barely spin.

            still not worth it to even attempt IMO

            ILBB
            Hey, that would do it. However, this would need much more room. Its a decent idea that isn't quite possible.

            EDIT: I mean the overall idea isn't quite possible.
            Last edited by KillerCam282; 12-03-2006, 06:10 PM.

            Comment


              #7
              yeah, killer... I thought of a bearing... but didn't like that idea, because there would still be some loss there. it would be better to somehow totally divorce it from the drivetrain.

              How about if there were two concentric sections of the flywheel, the lighter section is permanently connected to the engine, and the heavier section is attached to the first at the beginning, effectively making it one spinning weight when you're sitting there at the light waiting to take off...

              So you've got a 24 (maybe even 40 or 50) pound flywheel, you rev it up to 6 or 7 thousand, pop that monster clutch (with some monster sticky rubber between you and the road)... off you go.
              [How heavy is the flywheel on one of those funny cars with big fat tires and huge horsepower?]

              Then within a second or so that extra weight is holding you back... So at that moment the heavier outer flywheel disengages from the inner flywheel, now only the light inner section is connected to the drivetrain. At the same moment, that outer flywheel section engages with a second mechanism attached to the tranny case and on the same axis (like two ring frisbees on top of each other). This mechanism would brake the heavier outer flywheel, and transfer that energy to the drivetrain something like an automatic transmission.
              Last edited by do2mind; 12-03-2006, 11:49 PM.

              Comment


                #8
                Okay, here's a drawing...

                (A) is the lighter inner section of the flywheel, attached to the drivetrain (dots are the outline of it behind B and C).
                (B) is the outer heavier section of the flywheel, concentric but maybe slightly offset from A, attached to A during the first second or two, attached to C when it disconnects from A.
                (C) is the mechanism which connects to B when B disconnects from A, it brakes B, transfers that energy back to the drivetrain, and maintains the rotation of B when it's disconnected from A.

                Since this setup transfers even more torque during a point at which the tires are usually smoking and there's a lot of stress on the clutch, etc... you'd have to have a pretty solid clutch and bigger, stickier tires.
                Last edited by do2mind; 12-04-2006, 12:05 AM.

                Comment


                  #9
                  That design definitely would need a bearing.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by KillerCam282
                    That design definitely would need a bearing.
                    C would have the bearing, B would connect to C when it disconnects from A. That way there's no drag on the drivetrain by B after it disconnects from A.

                    B would have the starter gear teeth, since it's connected to A during cranking, and occupies the same space as the outside of a normal flywheel.
                    Last edited by do2mind; 12-04-2006, 12:07 AM.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      whether or not C tried to salvage that rotational energy and transfer it back to the drivetrain, or just let it go to waste and C only provides support for B independent of the drivetrain... would have to be based strictly on which setup produced the fastest quarter mile.

                      If you tried the fancy version it might add enough weight to offset the initial gain by dragging/accelerating that weight the entire quarter mile.
                      Last edited by do2mind; 12-04-2006, 11:04 PM.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I would think of a similar setup that do2mind had, but the release mechanism can be something similar to an a/c compressor clutch, but much larger. Maybe if they were both the same size, but have a little shaft come off of the crank on the back, and have the other one (heavier) ride on that shaft, behind the clutch? Sorry if thats confusing...

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I made a quick diagram....

                          Now obviously, clearance issues are rampant, custom input shaft sizes, maybe shimming the tranny away from the engine.... then u run into axle issues, etc...
                          But with enough money, that would probably work...

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I beleive ford tried something like that a few years back with the powerstroke diesels. they called it a "dual mass flywheel"?
                            Finally Up and Running. Numbers to Follow. Check my MR

                            Comment


                              #15
                              the other disadvantage to a lightweight flywheel is that it drops out of power band when you shift---and there would be no way to work that in to this concept

                              EDIT:nvmd, i guess if your maintained the motion of the heavy flywheel and have it connect between shifts it would work
                              Last edited by Mike; 12-04-2006, 09:36 PM.

                              Old Ride-New Ride

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X