Hondata s300 lean issue

[Stoner51]

I've had my hondata s300 for about 4-6 months. All is going well. I adjusted it as close to 14.9 on cruise as I could. Yes I adjusted the other columns as well.
I got the new tranny installed so now my cruise rpm has changed so I thought I woul retune. I usually only tune the fuel tables. Anyway.

Lately I have been running it with the engine at normal operating temp. One day I will be set then the next day it will be off. I thought it might be the LC-1 sensor. I ordered another. But haven't installed it yet.
My problem is in the morning I idle up. Let the temp get to operating temp then start tuning. I usually use the hondata estimated fuel change and add from there. Then look at te 2d map and sort of fine tune some of the peaks out.
I've noticed that when I've driven the car. Stopped gone in to say Walmart. And come back up. It idles extremely lean 18. Yeah I know. Blip the gas pedal and it goes to normal. As soon as the rpm come back down lean again

So I have adjusted the IAT offset to something like 14% at low load and 17 and medium load.

My question is. I know no two cars are the same. But that just seems like a drastic change considering I never did it before. I also had to adjust my voltage offset as well

I did have to redo my vtec wiring as I got it caught between the engine and the tranny when I installed the tranny.
The reason I adjust the IAT was the 750-1500 1-4 columns of the fuel graft all said add 15%?fuel. After that it was 0-3. Which I can live with


Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks again.

Steve

[MRX]

Are you leaving the ecu in open loop or something? Also, you never stated that the IAT changed between your datalogs. Did they even change? Have you checked for vac leaks? That actually seems like the most likely cause.

[Stoner51]

Thanks. I'll be honest, I can't read the datalogs. But yes when I add fuel to the IAT the AFR changes.
Basically what I have noted is A/C on and medium load needs to adjusted. A/C off and low load needs to be adjusted. The problem is medium load is also driving mode. Basically 3-6 columns. so when I adjust the medium load at idle for more fuel from the IAT settings it is way rich with normal driving. This is all in open loop

Idle hasn't really upped like I would expect from a vac leak. I can see the vac level go down when I apply electrical load ie a/c or rear defroster in the am.

I am going to start over again with a new map and recalibrate my lc-1 and see if I can get better.

I prefer to get the map within say 5% and then run the car in closed loop. Yes when I adjust the fuel tables I do so with the car in open loop.

Also this morning I noticed just watching the AFR gauage that after vtec my afr goes way rich. 10.9. For this I need to remove fuel from the high table correct?

thanks

steve

I know you tune. If you have a decent map or want to help me I am not opposed to purchasing said map. thanks

[MRX]

I think you're approaching this wrong based on what you've said. Let me explain. You're kind of chasing your own tail right now by adjusting both the fuel and the IAT comp values. What you should really do is set aside a few hours to tune on one day so you mostly have consistent IAT's. I always like tuning at night because ambient temps stay fairly consistent. What you seem to be doing, correct me if I'm wrong, is tuning both the fuel tables and the IAT values on different days.

What you should do, again, is tune the fuel tables one day with any other corrections like the IAT zeroed out. That way you have one point on the IAT curve that you know doesn't need to be touched. Go out and log the car on a day where the IAT value is different and has gone into a different cell or area of the curve and adjust only the IAT table for that IAT range. No need to ever touch the fuel tables again if you do this correctly.

So, what I'm essentially saying is if you nail the afr's down all throughout the matrix with no compensations and using only the fuel tables then you don't need to touch the fuel tables again if the afr's change. You only need to make small corrections to your other compensations like the IAT and ECT.

I'd just give you a map but all of my h22 hondata maps are for turbos. I've got Crome maps for you but you'd have to get rid of the hondata unit.

And yes, remove fuel from the high cam table to tune the vtec section. But you should not be tuning until you learn to read a datalog.

[MRX]

Also, I haven't opened up hondata in awhile. Is there an electrical load or A/C compensator? If there isn't then you're definitely chasing your tail by making adjustments to the fuel tables with those switched off and on.

[Stoner51]

I have the fuel maps repeatable at the same temps. But when the outside temp gets hotter at low idle the afr goes way lean.
I did in the beginning tune fuel and IAT. But I then realized exactly what you said. So I tuned just the fuel map. this morning on the drive in. All was good. This afternoon as soon as I come to a stop the afr goes way rich. 12.
Eletrical load compensation? As is injector dead times? Yes they do. And I think that that may be some of my problem.

Ok so looking at the data logs. The problem seems to be voltage related.
In the am the voltage was 14.25 at idle afr was 15.01
In the afternoon the voltage was 13.10 and the afr was 10.77

So my injector dead times are as follows
volts 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
dead times .92 .70 .56 .47 .34 .27 .24
Could you advise me on how to adjust these. I assume the temp will have something to do with the alt going out. Which I will fix. But these dead times are still off I assume or they wouldn't fluctuate that much?


Ok I think I'm getting some of this now.

I have two versions of smanager opened up.
voltage is the same, all the values are very close except 3.
injetor pulse 1.87
ELD 1.09
and afr 10.65
o2 voltage 3.55

injetor pulse 2.56
ELD 2.38
and afr 14.55
o2 voltage 3.87

battery voltage is exactly the same 13.96

I am using the eld as wideband input d10 I think it is.

I also noticed when I started this thread It was going lean. Now it is going rich. odd


steve

[Stoner51]

MRX. I would like to thank you for your help.
After reading and rereading your post. I went back. zeroed all iat number out and set the ignition timing again with hondata.
Then I started looking at the map. My problem was I was adjusting just the column highlighted. My problem was the idle is in column 3 so i would adjust it. At idle no load it would be at the edge of 3 closer to 2, and with the ac on it would be at the edge closer to 4.

So once I figured out that it was avg the two columns and I pulled up the number in column 2 now I have it fixed.

I still have more work to do. But this will help me a lot in the future.

thanks

steve

The other thing is. After tuning the high cam numbers I no longer get that loud baaa everytime vtec kicks in. And the car seems much more even throughout the revs.

And lastly this has also stabilized my voltage since now my rpm are much more stable and they don't dip as low at idle.

[MRX]

Good to hear and glad I could help!

Vtec is supposed to be even and smooth feeling. If that is what is happening then you're doing it correctly. If you want that hard kick just raise the engagement rpm but I've always thought smooth was better.

Also, I always tuned vtec by first disabling it and running the non-vtec map past my original vtec engagement point. Tuning accordingly, of course. Then engaging it lower than I normally would...tune accordingly. Then set the engagement point back to where it was (or where ever the torque curves cross) for super smooth engagement. Sounds like you're doing okay though.

[Stoner51]

Oh, That helps a lot. I was wondering how I was going to tune vtec. I just am not in it that much. At vtec engagement I was at 10.5. I am now about 11.8 or so. But my 2d lines look like a 2 year olds etch a sketch.
But I like that idea. I will prob do some of that this weekend.

Thanks again.

steve

[MRX]

I also move rpm values around the vtec engagement rpm to pinpoint a solid a/f even through the vtec transition.

For instance if vtec is at 4800 then I have a fuel and ignition point at 4750 and at 4850. Also, if you're NA you should be shooting for something closer to 12.7:1 to 13.0:1 depending on how aggressive you want to be.

[Stoner51]

So I thought I would update this a little bit.

Not only are these great for tuning but they are also good for diagnosing when shit changes.

I retuned the car had it running about 14.9 at cruise. 14.6-8 before that. I felt pretty good about it.

Then this problem comes back. Except now its running real rich at idle. Like 12 something. WTF I'm getting tired of this shit. And of course all this happens when I'm on vacation. It only does it at idle. All through the rest of the rpm it seems good.

I was 14.9 the whole way down there. Damn AFR gauge was barely moving. I actually felt good about this tune. Drive 3 hours come to a stop light and boom straight to 13. So I pull up the display. Yeah I always have my laptop in my car for long trips.. ECT and IAT temps are all about the same. 192 and 130-145

Next day I drive the car for a little get up to temp and come to a stop. Idle at 14.9. WTF. Oh well I'm on vacation. screw it.

So start the trip home first couple stops and all is good after about an hour of driving same thing starts to happen. So two more hours to drive. After the car gets up to operating temp for a while it runs way rich. Way rich means too much fuel and not enough spark. Bingo. Replace the fucking coil.

get home open the dizzy and its got oil in it. I have the old td89 dizzy I converted to td60. Put the new coil in there and it starts right up. Way stronger than before.

Tuning and diagnosing. Thank you hondata and innovative. And MRX for making me think about shit.


Make sense?

steve

I replaced all the vac lines. BC that made sense. But the MAP pressure was the same and the AFR was different. This made me think coil.

[toycar]

So I thought I would update this a little bit.

Not only are these great for tuning but they are also good for diagnosing when shit changes.

I retuned the car had it running about 14.9 at cruise. 14.6-8 before that. I felt pretty good about it.

Then this problem comes back. Except now its running real rich at idle. Like 12 something. WTF I'm getting tired of this shit. And of course all this happens when I'm on vacation. It only does it at idle. All through the rest of the rpm it seems good.

I was 14.9 the whole way down there. Damn AFR gauge was barely moving. I actually felt good about this tune. Drive 3 hours come to a stop light and boom straight to 13. So I pull up the display. Yeah I always have my laptop in my car for long trips.. ECT and IAT temps are all about the same. 192 and 130-145

Next day I drive the car for a little get up to temp and come to a stop. Idle at 14.9. WTF. Oh well I'm on vacation. screw it.

So start the trip home first couple stops and all is good after about an hour of driving same thing starts to happen. So two more hours to drive. After the car gets up to operating temp for a while it runs way rich. Way rich means too much fuel and not enough spark. Bingo. Replace the fucking coil.

get home open the dizzy and its got oil in it. I have the old td89 dizzy I converted to td60. Put the new coil in there and it starts right up. Way stronger than before.

Tuning and diagnosing. Thank you hondata and innovative. And MRX for making me think about shit.


Make sense?

steve

I replaced all the vac lines. BC that made sense. But the MAP pressure was the same and the AFR was different. This made me think coil.

Good job not just giving up

[MRX]

Good job! A major mistake most people make is assuming everything is mechanically sound just because the engine runs. Let me know if you need more help. And why are your IAT's so high? This is a NA motor right? You should be much closer to ambient unless you have a short ram intake.

[Stoner51]

Yes I have a short ram. Seemed like a good idea a couple years ago. Now I'm thinking about going cold air intake with the valve.

steve