Synthetic & oil seals (leaking)

[js593]

How many of you guys are running Synthetic oil, and have leaking seals? Since i switched, i have had to put 1QT per week in because its comin out the timing cover seal. I replaced the front balance shaft seal, cam and crank seal, yet its still leaking. Any idea's?
FYI, I ran Mobile1 10W30 Synthetic, leaked the most, put in 10W30 Semi synthetic and the leaking droped a bit, but its still leaking.
I dunno wtf's causing this, but it sure it ticking me off with the nice oil stain on the driveway.

[C91BLX7]

Thats why you don't put synthetic in a old engine.

[js593]

Thats why you don't put synthetic in a old engine.

Thats why you replace the seals before you put the oil in.
Which i have done if you didnt read.

[cp[mike]]

which seal is it leaking from, then?

[js593]

which seal is it leaking from, then?

Im not 100% sure to be honest. Ive replaced all those posted above, but there is still oil coming from the lower part of the timing cover, dripping onto the oil pan seal. The only one i HAVENT changed (cause its too freakin hard) is the rear balance shaft. Front one was easy as pie, cam and crank were pretty easy, but that rear shaft has next to no room to play with.
Other then that, im not sure what could be leaking. There's no saturation around the cam and front balance seal, but there is some on the lower crank seal (obviously because of gravitation) and around the rear shaft seal (not sure if thats because of the way the timing belt rotates or not) could be that i got a new defective crank seal, or the rear shaft is in fact leaking.

[wed3k]

you lubed the seal prior to installation right?

[TypeG]

i don't have any leaks and i run synthetic. later.

[Gettin_faster91]

i don't have any leaks and i run synthetic. later.

That's because the oil is scared of you and your superhero cleaning powers!

[js593]

you lubed the seal prior to installation right?

Whoh whoh, wait just a freakin second... I guess im going to have to re-do all of them I pressed them in pretty much dry, wiped everything down with a rag, and poped in the new one.
I assumed that if you put in a seal wet, it would cause it to leak right away, which is why i put it in dry.

Does the inner, or the outer part of the seal need to be lubed? (gonna go get them @ honda on friday and do it all this weekend)

Also, how hard is the rear shaft to do. I looked in my manual and it doesnt give me a good explanation on how to do the rear one. I also looked around on the site previously, and couldnt find much.

Also: here is how i installed my seals:

1: remove covers, pulley, spockets and old seal with a special hook tool.
2: clean up surfaces, made sure nothing was wrong with them, no nicks or anything.
3: put new seal up to surface it mates to and put a socket on the end of it. SLOWLY using a crobar (on the socket) to put the seal in place.
4: spin the shaft and make sure it spins without any major resistance in the spin.
Put everything back together & go to town.

let me know if i did something wrong. Probably leaving the surfaces dry was a bad idea.

[Leung]

are those seals something you should apply some Hondabond to?

[cp[mike]]

Whoh whoh, wait just a freakin second... I guess im going to have to re-do all of them I pressed them in pretty much dry, wiped everything down with a rag, and poped in the new one.
I assumed that if you put in a seal wet, it would cause it to leak right away, which is why i put it in dry.

Does the inner, or the outer part of the seal need to be lubed? (gonna go get them @ honda on friday and do it all this weekend)

Also, how hard is the rear shaft to do. I looked in my manual and it doesnt give me a good explanation on how to do the rear one. I also looked around on the site previously, and couldnt find much.

at this point i would recommend pulling it back apart, if you are that worried about the leak (is it that bad?) (edit: yeah, 1qt a week... ugh). youll be able to pinpoint the source, at least.

the rear balance shaft has a pair of mini gears behind that housing. they are open to the oil galleys so there is an o-ring style rubber gasket underneath it, its definitely possible that that could be leaking. pick one up when you go back to the dealer! when you remove the housing (which includes the one gear) the shaft weight falls and the gears all get whacked. so when you reinstall it you will need to use the shaft's lock hole in the back of the block and install the belt regardless of how the marks on the rear gear end up lining up.

the rest of the seals, i would inspect once you get the cover back off, to decide if they require replacing...

the honda manual describes the procedure as "the seal surface on the block should be dry. apply a light coat of grease to the shaft, and the lip of the seal" and then it instructs you to drive the seal in with the tool.

i would assume this "lip" is the inner seal lip that comes pre-lubed from the dealership (aftermarket seals come dry).

i have heard many people mentioning using a bit of oil on the outer seal edge before pressing it in, which of course would help installation of a rubber seal against a dry metal block (and is often recommended for most rubber seals)... BUT to me that sounds completely crazy, because thats what the seal is supposed to prevent. perhaps it works because of the tight tolerance, but still. maybe a TINY bit of oil just to rejuvinate and clean the rubber, and then wipe it back off? or something.

though on the flipside, sometimes while ive been installing seals ive seen the outer edge of dry rubber getting stuck against the block and squishing outward, and thats no good either.

when i did my H22 i used a tiny layer of hondabond on the outer edge of the seal, i figure thats a pretty good compromise. helps it slide in, and also helps seal every microscopic gap or crack... once it was in, i pressed the excess into the crack with my finger to smooth it out and and wiped up the rest. though ive never heard anybody recommend nor criticize this method i also always use hondabond on the cam gears, but those are easy to put in either way.

id be curious to see the rest of the input in this thread as well.

[90Haccord]

I changed to full syn at 230K.

No leaks, if anything it leaks less but I did use high mileage syn with more moly in it to stop/prevent further leaks.

[js593]

at this point i would recommend pulling it back apart, if you are that worried about the leak (is it that bad?) (edit: yeah, 1qt a week... ugh). youll be able to pinpoint the source, at least.

the rear balance shaft has a pair of mini gears behind that housing. they are open to the oil galleys so there is an o-ring style rubber gasket underneath it, its definitely possible that that could be leaking. pick one up when you go back to the dealer! when you remove the housing (which includes the one gear) the shaft weight falls and the gears all get whacked. so when you reinstall it you will need to use the shaft's lock hole in the back of the block and install the belt regardless of how the marks on the rear gear end up lining up.

the rest of the seals, i would inspect once you get the cover back off, to decide if they require replacing...

the honda manual describes the procedure as "the seal surface on the block should be dry. apply a light coat of grease to the shaft, and the lip of the seal" and then it instructs you to drive the seal in with the tool.

i would assume this "lip" is the inner seal lip that comes pre-lubed from the dealership (aftermarket seals come dry).

i have heard many people mentioning using a bit of oil on the outer seal edge before pressing it in, which of course would help installation of a rubber seal against a dry metal block (and is often recommended for most rubber seals)... BUT to me that sounds completely crazy, because thats what the seal is supposed to prevent. perhaps it works because of the tight tolerance, but still. maybe a TINY bit of oil just to rejuvinate and clean the rubber, and then wipe it back off? or something.

though on the flipside, sometimes while ive been installing seals ive seen the outer edge of dry rubber getting stuck against the block and squishing outward, and thats no good either.

when i did my H22 i used a tiny layer of hondabond on the outer edge of the seal, i figure thats a pretty good compromise. helps it slide in, and also helps seal every microscopic gap or crack... once it was in, i pressed the excess into the crack with my finger to smooth it out and and wiped up the rest. though ive never heard anybody recommend nor criticize this method i also always use hondabond on the cam gears, but those are easy to put in either way.

id be curious to see the rest of the input in this thread as well.

Its amazing how much shit you know about these cars, its truely incredible.
Im going to the dealer on friday and picking up all the seals on that end of the motor. Im also purchasing a dye kit which will help greatly. From the sounds of it, the seals i purchased were installed wrong. Thank god it only came to like 24$ for all of them.

Im also going to move back over to high milage semi-syntheic Valvoline, I used that a while back, and didnt have much for leaking.

More imput the better, Hell, someone should write up a How-to install a seal.

Also, when removing the rear ballance shaft, is it the same type of seal thats used for the front, or is it the type of seal thats kinda like the distributor one?
Im getting all my part numbers together so i can get everything at one dealer.

Thanks in advance guys.

edit: I have some Melling Engine Assembly lube, will this be ok to use on the inner part of the seal when putting it in?

[cp[mike]]

hah, ive just owned enough of them. ask me about another car and im clueless.

the seal behind the rear balance shaft gear housing is part# 15114-PT0-003, it is #11 in this pic: http://slhondaparts.com/images/PCI/13SM40/019/1.jpg

its just a black rubber gasket.


and i dont know about assembly lube for the lip, i guess that would work? the theory is right but it may be overkill, or not recommended at all. im really not sure, grease is usually always recommended

[js593]

Wicked, thanks mike. Gonna get all the gaskets on friday, and make it my weekend job in the garage. Its gonna be +10, and the door is gonna be open with the sun in my face, im gonna be one happy ****er.