Perfect timing causing problems -- SOLVED.

[accordaffair]

I recently changed out all my timing belt components. Including the water pump, tensioners, seals, camshaft retainer, acc belts and timing belt (of course).

After installation we (my mechanic did the work, I just helped) couldn't start the car. We checked the timing 3-4 times before realizing we had no spark. For some reason the distributor quit during the timing belt change. We change that and it starts right up, no problem.

Well, I noticed that sometimes during acceleration, the car will....flicker...not electrically, it will sort of..miss...sort of stutter or bog. It's almost unnoticeable if you didn't own the car and know it's tendencies and characteristics like I do. It only seems to happen during strong acceleration, and only around 3500-4500 rpms. It only happens some of the time and it seems almost like the timing is off for that split second. Now I've never known the feeling of a car out of timing so I don't truly know if it's timing or not.

Second, after the car has engaged the overdrive/torque converter, the car will jump about 100-200 rpms. For example you accelerate normally through all gears, at the end of fourth the torque converter does its thing, and the rpms will drop 300-400 as you cruise. Well now after dropping 3-400 it regains about 1-200 and stays. What I've noticed is it seems like its trying to engage the TQ. CONV. earlier than it used to (before timing belt change) but that might be mental. This is reproducible, unlike the first problem. It occurs everytime.

Now, in my mind I was thinking "Timing". So I took the car back to my mechanic to have him check the DISTRIBUTOR timing, which I only assume he checked back when it was put on. He pulled out the timing light and showed me it was spot on.

So I'm lost, neither of these problems occured before the timing belt change...

My mechanic thought maybe it could be the fuel filter. I replaced it about a year and a half ago when I first got the car. That's less than 10,000 miles ago..but I figured, hey that's not hard, and it's cheap. I replaced it and while I was under the hood, I cleaned my FITV, EACV, Air boost valve...I cleaned my FPR, fuel injectors...and I did a Seafoam job while I was down there. It didn't help the problems I've stated.

So, once again, I'm stuck. Does anyone have any suggestions? BTW, my mech says the timing was slightly off before we installed the new components. He said off by maybe one or two marks. But when we put on the new one it was checked and double checked (and triple and quadruple) for perfect timing. All help is appreciated!

[brandenbmx]

when your old timming belt broke were u driving the car?

If so you may have some valve train problems.......but if it was just maintence then that isnt the case.....

Also where is he showing u the timming at????? or where is he pointing the timing light... He may think the timming is on but if you skipped a tooth or something ......but not likely.
It does sound wired to have a intermident miss at high rpms but not all the way through the rpm range.... It is my experiance that when your timming is off it will affect the entire rpm range not just high or low..so
Did he use your coil or cap or button or even the igniter from your old distributer , These sound more like the probem. I am becoming a expert on these god damed ignitions..... lol I would check your plugs, for gapping, wires for resistance, the coil and ignitor, and the cap and button ....
These are all cheap and easy fixes....... You may also have gotten a bad distributer.... I have had a few bad ones.. they are notorious for fucking up....

Hope this helped

[accordaffair]

when your old timming belt broke were u driving the car?

If so you may have some valve train problems.......but if it was just maintence then that isnt the case.....

No, it was strictly maintenance, the old one didn't break.

Also where is he showing u the timming at????? or where is he pointing the timing light... He may think the timming is on but if you skipped a tooth or something ......but not likely.

As we changed the belt he showed me the marks on the cogs/camshaft or whatever to indicate timing...I admit I don't know how to read timing, but he has no reason to lie about that...

As for the dizzy (im guessing that means ignition timing?) he pulled the rubber doo-dad near the engine ID mark, and showed me how how it lines up with the marker to the right, and it was spot on.

It does sound wired to have a intermident miss at high rpms but not all the way through the rpm range.... It is my experiance that when your timming is off it will affect the entire rpm range not just high or low..so

Well it does not seem to affect the entire range, nor does it seem to happen all the time. That's one reason we thought to replace the fuel filter..it almost feels like the fuel cuts out for 1/10th of a second. We thought it may be a clog.

Did he use your coil or cap or button or even the igniter from your old distributer , These sound more like the probem. I am becoming a expert on these god damed ignitions..... lol I would check your plugs, for gapping, wires for resistance, the coil and ignitor, and the cap and button ....
These are all cheap and easy fixes....... You may also have gotten a bad distributer.... I have had a few bad ones.. they are notorious for fucking up....

We replaced the entire distributor assembly with a brand new one...it raped my wallet (at around $300) but its not like I had a choice if I wanted the car to run.

Hope this helped

Everything helps brother, thanks.

[accordaffair]

I'm going to see if the new distributor's sparks may be jumping a gap to my CAI...and I'm going to learn how to read the timing, and look at it myself...I'm still lost, but I'll report back.

[accordaffair]

Symptom: No Start or Stall especially when damp outside.

Possible problem: Defective distributor cap and rotor. Note: I have seen many aftermarket rotors that are no good! I have found that Honda OEM parts are the best way to go! And Honda isn't paying me a dime for this statement.

I think my new aftermarket dizzy may be defective. I have had problems with it stalling when its wet out! It may be the reason behind my former problems as well! And the guy from that website has retired and is selling all sorts of oem parts.

I'm also toying with the idea that the tranny may be slipping. I'm considering a true flush and refill....

[F22-GURU]

Don't confuse a slipping tranny for a intermittent misfire under load. Sounds like the Ignition Wires breaking down under max load. (ie In Top gear with TCC Lock up on light acceleration up an incline at about 40 - 50 mph)
Check the Cap for Cracks. Check for Shorts to Earth (Sparking Across Gaps). Doing a Standard Resistance Test with an Ohm Meter on the Ign Wires wont necessarily show up the problem.

Are all the Ignition Wires clean at the Spark Plugs.
Did any Oil seep into the Spark Plug Tubes when you had the Valve Cover Off?
Are all the Ignition Wires Clean Secure on the Spark Plugs and in the Distributor Cap?
What was the Condition of the Replacement Distributor, Cap, Rotor etc.?
Is the Ignition Coil Internal or External?
Is there any Movement in the Rotor Shaft Upper Bearing?

Problems in any of these areas can cause an intermittent Misfire

The Distributors on CB7's have an Offset Slot to fit in to the end of the Camshaft so it is virtually impossible to get the timing out if refit into the same position of the Adjustment Arc.

Try a new set of Spark Plugs - Fit NGK Iridiums
Fit a New Set of 10mm Ignition Wires, Rotor & Cap.

[accordaffair]

Don't confuse a slipping tranny for a intermittent misfire under load. Sounds like the Ignition Wires breaking down under max load. (ie In Top gear with TCC Lock up on light acceleration up an incline at about 40 - 50 mph)
Check the Cap for Cracks. Check for Shorts to Earth (Sparking Across Gaps). Doing a Standard Resistance Test with an Ohm Meter on the Ign Wires wont necessarily show up the problem.

Are all the Ignition Wires clean at the Spark Plugs.
Did any Oil seep into the Spark Plug Tubes when you had the Valve Cover Off?
Are all the Ignition Wires Clean Secure on the Spark Plugs and in the Distributor Cap?
What was the Condition of the Replacement Distributor, Cap, Rotor etc.?
Is the Ignition Coil Internal or External?
Is there any Movement in the Rotor Shaft Upper Bearing?

I have replaced upper and lower tube seals, but oil still leaks into the tubes some. It is a small amount. I removed the plugs and cleaned them, without results. I removed the wires and resecured them. The dizzy we installed was brand new. The coil is for a stock 90 accord. I believe thats internal, but I don't know. As for that rotor shaft upper bearing..I don't know what it is, I will look at that.

Problems in any of these areas can cause an intermittent Misfire

The Distributors on CB7's have an Offset Slot to fit in to the end of the Camshaft so it is virtually impossible to get the timing out if refit into the same position of the Adjustment Arc.

Try a new set of Spark Plugs - Fit NGK Iridiums
Fit a New Set of 10mm Ignition Wires, Rotor & Cap.

The plugs are quite new NGK ZFR5F-11, less than 6 months old, less than 3-4000 miles on them. I haven't replaced the wires though I tested for resistance. We replaced the entire dizzy assembly.
I have problems with the car intermittantly stalling for 1-2 seconds when it gets wet outside. This only started after the new dizzy was installed. I thought it felt like a slipping tranny, I checked the fluid (which is new honda ATF) it was correct level and color. I first was firm in believing it was ignition system, but everyone was pushing me in the direction of tranny problems. I have no problem going back to blaming the dizzy

[F22-GURU]

Now we are starting to get to the bottom of it.
Sounds like everything is pointing towards the Ignition Wires. Like I said a resistance check will not necessarily show a problem. I'd be replacing the Ignition Wires before any further diagnosis.

Have a read of this site - It may help understand how Engines work.

http://autorepair.about.com/

[accordaffair]

I am ordering some new ngk wires, I won't waste what little money I have on new plugs though...somehow I keep thinking it all comes back to that dizzy though...since something intermitently stalls the car some when it gets wet outside...

I remember something from back when we changed the belts..the first time we tried to start it up, I saw a spark jump on the passenger side of the car. It looked like it connected with the passenger side motor mount, though where it came from...I only assume it came from the dizzy (since thats close to that mount and it is what unexpectedly failed without warning) the dizzy must of grounded down, and the metal on the passenger motor mount was the closest grounding point. I do not know why it did it, but I remember seeing that spark...it was a white and blue color, scared the heck out of me.

[accordaffair]

Just wanted to report back. I got the new plug wires, these NGK's are nice quality! The boot actually seals the spark plug tube, something the Bosch's that were on here did not do. Anyway, although they are nice quality and I'm happy to have them, they did not solve my problem.

I am looking at buying a TCU now...perhaps I should seriously consider replacing this aftermarket distributor with an OEM one.

Oh woe is me

[F22-GURU]

I remember something from back when we changed the belts..the first time we tried to start it up, I saw a spark jump on the passenger side of the car. It looked like it connected with the passenger side motor mount, though where it came from...I only assume it came from the dizzy (since thats close to that mount and it is what unexpectedly failed without warning) the dizzy must of grounded down, and the metal on the passenger motor mount was the closest grounding point. I do not know why it did it, but I remember seeing that spark...it was a white and blue color, scared the heck out of me.

That's what I meant by checking for shorts to earth!!!!

Try and reproduce the fault while stationary. Check it while its dark. If there is any external ignition sparks shorting to earth then you will definately see them. Any metal object near the distributor will be a perfect conductor for the spark.
To fire the mixture in the combustion chamber, the ignition system sends out a very high voltage (40,000+ Volts) from the ignition coil through the rotor to the dizzy cap, through the ignition leads to the spark plug at the precise time it is signalled to by the ECU. The spark plug is earthed out by being in contact with the cylinder head. The high voltage from the ignition wires goes through the centre of the spark plug which creates a spark by shorting to earth across the electrode which is attached directly to the earthed part of the spark plug. The Centre Rod of the spark plug is insulated from the Base Earth Point by the porceline shell.
Any electrical current will follow the shortest, most direct path to earth.
The the ignition system parts, like the Rotor, Dizzy Cap, Ignition Wires & Spark Plugs are made of materials, like bakerlite, rubber & porceline, that wont conduce electricity. Notice that the ignition wires have rubber insulated boots at the top and long insulated bakerlite stems with isulated rubber ends.
The Extremely High Voltage the ignition system puts out can create havoc if there is any conductive object within a small distance of any of the ignition system parts. Oil, Dirt & Water are also good conductors of electricity.
Please check all these items are OK before you buy the TCU.
Intermittent Faults are the most difficult to diagnose in any system.
A lot of the time you have to experience the actual fault for yourself to properly diagnose it.

[accordaffair]

So lets assume that it is still intermittently grounding, and that it is grounding to the passenger side motor mount. Why would it want to jump 5-6 inches instead of going through the plug like it's supposed to? Hmm..

So the shortest route to ground is supposed to be through the cylinder block, through the spark plug. But it may be grounding by jumping gap to the chassis. It's dark out now, I will go rev on it some and look for blue sparks... I hope it doesn't jump gap to me!

[F22-GURU]

So lets assume that it is still intermittently grounding, and that it is grounding to the passenger side motor mount. Why would it want to jump 5-6 inches instead of going through the plug like it's supposed to? Hmm..

So the shortest route to ground is supposed to be through the cylinder block, through the spark plug. But it may be grounding by jumping gap to the chassis. It's dark out now, I will go rev on it some and look for blue sparks... I hope it doesn't jump gap to me!

I can see where you are coming from but the "INTENDED" destination for the ignition spark is through to the Spark Plug electrode in the Cylinder Head.
If the Electrical Current from the Ignition System, and remember, we are talking in the vicinity of 40,000 volts, can find a shorter path to ground it will take it.
Think of electricity as Trains on a Rail line. If a train left Los Angeles and it's intended destination was for New York and some bastard comes along and flicks the switch at **Wyoming and sends it towards Mexico, the train ain't going to end up in New York.
**Excuse if my geography is out, I'm an Aussie.

[accordaffair]

Sure I understand electricity wanting to take the shortest, easiest route to ground. Yes, we may yet be upon the problem. Let me ask, is it safe to have my hand under the hood, revving the throttle, if the ignition system is jumping gaps like a rabid wallaby? (theres my AUS wit attempt)

[F22-GURU]

Sure I understand electricity wanting to take the shortest, easiest route to ground. Yes, we may yet be upon the problem. Let me ask, is it safe to have my hand under the hood, revving the throttle, if the ignition system is jumping gaps like a rabid wallaby? (theres my AUS wit attempt)

No, but it is safe to get someone else to put their hand under the bonnet.

Only the Black Wallabies Jump, cause 'White Wallabies Can't Jump!!'