Perfect timing causing problems -- SOLVED.

[F22-GURU]

sound like you been chasing the wrong problem. I would have leaned towards transmission problems since day one since those exact symptoms occur quite often on many accords in ym shop when they have high milage auto trannies.
anyway as far as teh flush goes it will either work or kill your transmission, honda has gone as far as making several tech articles stating NOT to do any kind of flush on the transmission.
.

Well it all comes down to the explanation and details of the original complaint and It's always easier to diagnose things in hindsight.
Depends on how the Flush is done. If you Run the engine with a hose disconnected while pumping fluid back in manually then it can fuck everything up, but the Wynns Transerve II Machine I use does a Complete 1:1 Fluid Exchange after running a Flushing Agent through it. Then adds a Fluid Conditioner during exchange. It pumps in what it pumps out at the exact same rate. I can't see how exchanging Old, Contaiminated or Burnt Fluid for Brand New Clean Fluid could possibly cause any problems. If they say not to flush the tranny then why replace any fluid whatsoever. I've done about 20 Fluid exchanges since I've owned it on various makes and models and not one has had a problem. The only complaint I get is that they can't feel it shift like they used to.

[F22-GURU]

this is why i live by the words "if it aint broke dont fix it."

its been approx 160km since my tb was last changed and i dont plan to change that bitch until it breaks.

Yep! That's a damn fine idea - Wait until it breaks then replace it.
Have you ever heard of Preventative Maintenance.

[accordaffair]

Let me say something. I really should buy a helms manual. I downloaded one in pdf form, and found a lot of useful information. There is a troubleshooting section and one symptom reads, "Flares on 2-3 upshift". Possible reasons are 3,15,24,44 - E,L,V

3. Throttle cable too long
15. Throttle B valve stuck
24. 2nd orifice control valve stuck
44. Feedpipe O-ring broken.

E. If throttle valve B is stuck, inspect the clutches for wear.
L. If the oil screen is clogged with particles of aluminum, inpect the oil pump and differential pinion shaft. If both are OK and no cause for the contamination is found, replace the torque converter.
V. Throttle cable adjustment is essential for proper operation of the tranmission. Not only does it affect the shift points if misadjusted, but also the shift quality and lock-up clutch operation. A too long adjusted cable will result in throttle pressure being too low for the amount of engine torque input into the transmission and may cause clutch slippage. A too short adjusted throttle cable will result in too high pressures which may cause harsh shifts, erratic shifts and torque converter hunting.

Kinda reinforces how you told me to check the throttle cable guru. I sort of eyed the cables. I didn't know what to look for though. They both are kind of loose, ie not tight when at rest. I need to do a proper inspection on both of them. Reasons 15,24,44 have me lost though. I don't know what those are or how to inspect them. I'm going to buy a helms right away.

[accordaffair]

Truly embarrassing and liberating

I've solved my problem, just this day....

Lets look back before I explain it shall we?

We started with a timing belt change, and the replacement of the distributor. Following this I started having problems...for nearly a year now IIRC the problem has been ongoing...many things have been replaced in order to solve it, but nothing could solve the real problem.

I had suspected it was the timing, and I took it back to my mechanic and explained what was happening. He told my the timing was double, triple checked and he even hooked up the timing light and showed me. The white line could be clearly seen lined up dead on. The distributor always stuck in the back of my mind, because it was an aftermarket distributor, not OEM. If you're an experienced honda mechanic, you likely know what went wrong already....

I sought an OEM distributor, but a new one is very expensive. I picked up one used from ebay from a guy parting out several accords. Well I had never replaced or installed a distributor, or even learned how to check my timing. So I turned to the honda service manual (the greatest thing you can get for your honda) and printed out what I needed. I figured if I'm going to replace it I should first learn how to read it. I hooked up the timing light and learned the truth.

The Honda manual tells you to line up the pistol sights and place the RED line in the middle of them. The white line is way above the red line. Back when my mech. did the timing he lined up the white line....I guess its an honest mistake but it has caused me a lot of trouble....

I lined the red line up and went for a drive, of course the problem was solved. So many hundreds have been spent on this shit so far.....and for free I could've fixed it long ago.............GAH

I don't know what the white line is for, or how many degrees off it is, or even if its advanced or retarded...

Anyhow the problem is SOLVED.

[v4lu3s]

white=top dead center
red=15 before top dead center

id kcik the mechanic in the nuts for being a moron. tell him to never touch a honda again.

[accordaffair]

Well he was my friend and coworker before he was my mechanic. He's still a nice guy, but I need to learn this stuff for myself instead of relying on what other people tell me. So the white line is TDC....the car still ran pretty well for being way off! I feel bad for putting the car through all that..hehe if the car could talk it would've bitch slapped me for running it for so long in this way.

[HondaFan81]

Wow, I'm surprised at how you were off by 15 deg at the crank on ignition timing. At the same time, I'm glad you posted back on your findings like many forget to do and we have far too many "open" issue threads.

Ignition timing can be set by lining up the 15 deg BTDC line or the TDC line, it just depends on what type of timing gun you have an which method you use. Your mechanic friend could have set your ignition timing right if he had an adjustable timing light and set it to 15 deg BTDC then line up the TDC line with the block pointer, but it sounds like he did not and was using the "standard" method.

Good findings, hope the motor still lasts you well. At least you checked out other areas and know the condition of them now for future issues and diagnosis you will know that they are more than likely okay so you can narrow down your future issues quicker.

[F22-GURU]

Well it all comes down to the explanation and details of the original complaint and It's always easier to diagnose things in hindsight.

Please Re-read this Quote.
I'll give you a clip across the ears and you give your Mechanic Friend a good foot up the arse for me.

Glad you finally sorted it out though. I bet you have learnt a lot from the experience too.

Cheers

Geoff

[TheTempest]

white=top dead center
red=15 before top dead center

id kcik the mechanic in the nuts for being a moron. tell him to never touch a honda again.

OMFG yes! I'd be pretty pissed. Granted, yes, it was an honest mistake, but you cant miss the TDC in the white line...and anyone who knows cars, should know that timing isn't set set @ TDC, but instead, at some point before that, 15* before top dead center is quite common. Even so, the redline has a 15 in it... =)

Well, I'm sorry it took so long, and I'm glad to see you got it working.

Thanks for posting back and letting us know.

Good luck,
TheTempest

[accordaffair]

You guys will probably be pissed, but not as pissed as I am. The problem returned about a day after I thought I had fixed it. Maybe it never left...it certainly seems better but its definately still there. So I took that aftermarket dizzy out and put a Honda OEM (TEC TD-34u) in. Set timing and it was working well, but I can still reproduce the problem. Like before, its harder to reproduce, but its def still there.......

FUCK ME

I'm ready to give up

[starchland]

dont give up bro, just take a step back, take a deep breath whatever it takes, sometimes it takes time and maybe a good year before a problem is solved, weve all been through it. My advice would be to do a once over of the whole car, make sure everything is oem honda, are your plugs gapped properly, did you replace your coil wire when you replaced your spark plug wires,test your coil as well,etc.

Im thinking when you changed your TB and all that other maintenance items, it just made this problem stand out more. It looks to be something related to a problem I once had with my coil where the rpms would jump around and the engine would miss. however it seems a little different since your car is an auto, im not sure how this would affect it differently, someone with experience with autos might be able to chime in.

hope you solve this

[accordaffair]

Well I swapped the whole dizzy assembly out, its internal coil. Plugs wires are new NGK, plugs are relatively newish, less than 10k, NGK's. Changed ecu's, changed tcu's. Replaced tranny fluid with Honda stuff. Adjusted valve clearances to spec...hmmm maybe some other stuff. But I don't know, at this point I don't think I can solve it. I fear the tranny needs to be rebuilt...at this point I may as well bite the bullet and take it to Honda. Can't afford it, but I could put it on credit. Assuming it will cost about $300, prob something relatively simple/uncomplicated. If it does need a new tranny, I'd prob just convert it back to stock and sell it and get a 5-speed.

*EDIT* It started when I had the timing belt package done, I also had the oil pan seal replaced, thats when the dizzy blew for some reason. So I blamed the new dizzy for the longest time but...since I've tried a different dizzy I don't think I can blame it anymore...

But, like my uncle was telling me...it could be completely unrelated to those things. Maybe it just happened to happen at the same time. Getting stuck on those things, I'll never look elsewhere. Honda suggests adjusting throttle and auto "kick-down" cables for "flaring on 2-3 upshift". And it also suggest things related to the inner workings of the tranny...so cable adjustment is the only thing I can really do myself.

[starchland]

from your video, the problem doesnt seem that severe. Is there a problem with drivability?

ps did you replace the wire that goes from the coil to the distributor?

[accordaffair]

It's internal coil. It really doesn't mess up drivability, but when something goes wrong with the car I want to fix it. I'm not satisfied with simply allowing it to deteriorate.