Cb7 Stock H22 Vs. Civic Si K20 (Street)

[tutsuo]

tutsuo, how much hp & tq did your h22a put down when it was tuned? and what gear was it in?


mid/low 15's seem about the average for newer Si's from what i see at the strip here. and there's a Kseries EG hatch that's lightened which was running around 14.2-15.1 on a cool night, decent driver and ran mid/low 14's the rest of the night.


an h22a sedan cb7 was running high 16's low 17's, i know the guy personally. ebay boltons, untuned, f22 trans, engine not well taken care of, vtec not engaging. tried to steer him in the right direction when i worked on his car a few times but i can't tell someone how to spend their money.


so a good h22a cb7 and an 8th gen Si should be about neck and neck and go either way.


i'd like to think that an h22a cb7 vs. a newer gen Si will always give the advantage to the Civic. the gearing on the K's trans is really what's gonna set it apart. not to mention a fresher engine, fresher suspension to keep it stiff. prime for prime i'd say h22a lsd cb7 would take it.

The motor was new with FnF suspension and motor mounts... i was making something like 220 to the wheel if i remember correctly.

[owequitit]

tutsuo, how much hp & tq did your h22a put down when it was tuned? and what gear was it in?


mid/low 15's seem about the average for newer Si's from what i see at the strip here. and there's a Kseries EG hatch that's lightened which was running around 14.2-15.1 on a cool night, decent driver and ran mid/low 14's the rest of the night.


an h22a sedan cb7 was running high 16's low 17's, i know the guy personally. ebay boltons, untuned, f22 trans, engine not well taken care of, vtec not engaging. tried to steer him in the right direction when i worked on his car a few times but i can't tell someone how to spend their money.


so a good h22a cb7 and an 8th gen Si should be about neck and neck and go either way.


i'd like to think that an h22a cb7 vs. a newer gen Si will always give the advantage to the Civic. the gearing on the K's trans is really what's gonna set it apart. not to mention a fresher engine, fresher suspension to keep it stiff. prime for prime i'd say h22a lsd cb7 would take it.

You do realize you are talking a heavily modified CB7 versus a completely stock Si right? I can put a header, exhaust, intake and Flashpro on the Civic and be well above most bolt on H22's. If I go the route of cams, etc. An otherwise internally stock K20 will belt out nearly 300WHP.

[jdm92_accorn]

You do realize you are talking a heavily modified CB7 versus a completely stock Si right? I can put a header, exhaust, intake and Flashpro on the Civic and be well above most bolt on H22's. If I go the route of cams, etc. An otherwise internally stock K20 will belt out nearly 300WHP.

Negative, max bolt-ons on an si is 270whp and 165wtq, that is kelford cams, hondata intake gasket, ctr intake manifold, bigger tb, race header, 3"exhaust, intake and reflash. at that a full bolt-on type-s h22 will make 250whp tops so you got one there.. I hardly call a bolt-on h22 cb7 "heavily modified" though. On the cb7's defense, switching from the f22 trans to the m2s4 trans I have now dropped mine from 15.8's to 15.1's back when all I had was ebay I/h/e/h23 I.M. and tb with bisi cam and chipped p06. The si is geared perfect for it's stock engine. I put money on a stock euro r complete swap in a cb7 on nothing but a 2.25" cat back ( same size as stock si piping) and a 4.64 fd (si is 4.764) will mop the floor with the si. I bet an f20b the exhaust and t2w4 trans with 4.64fd would still out run a new si.

[ThatOneAccord]

Basically what you're saying is...A CB equipped with an H22 with little to no mods is basically equavalent to a stock newer gen Si? That sounds about right to me. H22a 200hp and the K20/4 is 197-204hp, they sound equal to me.

[jdm92_accorn]

the sedan DOES run different times. my buddy kev has a 08 coupe, it ran 15.6's. my buddy jay has an 08 sedan and his ran 15.3's on the same day. and as far as the 14.8 cars, i figured that one out aswell. nothing but a flashpro with a custom tune will put a stock si sedan running 14.8's due to lower vtec engagement resulting in an additional 31whp at the beginning of 2nd and 3rd gear. peak power was, get this, 186whp & 133wtq vs the prelude he has that makes 187whp & 14Xwtq with a type-s h22 swap with bolt-ons on the same dyno. his prelude is actually a automatic and from a dig the si pulls on it till about 50mph then the the lude walks it down just in time to pass it before it goes through the traps. 14.896 on the si vs 14.736 in the lude. the si's are nice well rounded cars but drag racing is not one of it's strong points. too much weight and not enough torque to make if competitive. you should have seen it against betsy, lmao. 13.830 to 14.847, it was real bad to watch from what my brother says. took all of the fun out of my night though, every time they'd line me up against a hatch or ej coupe or the like, they'd wave me around so they could run each other. i got stuck running a bunch of f-body chevys and fox body fords. the cars were always way slower or way faster. once the excitement is gone i lose focus and my times suffer from my boredom, lol. i think a cb7 ex sedan with f20b, 2.25" exhaust, T2W4 trans with 4.64 is a 20yr old equivalent to the 08 si. both are fully loaded, weigh close to the same, would run similar times with the cb7 still being the better bang for the buck. a 1993 ex sedan with the f20 manual engine, the aforementioned trans setup, a set of all new oem bushings and arms, F&F coilover, 5lug swap with civic si wheels and a k&n panel filter with apexi WS2 exhaust and you still have less than half the cost of the civic si with the same performance, reliability and with the right choice of styling cues, just as nice of an appearance in my opinion.

[owequitit]

Negative, max bolt-ons on an si is 270whp and 165wtq, that is kelford cams, hondata intake gasket, ctr intake manifold, bigger tb, race header, 3"exhaust, intake and reflash. at that a full bolt-on type-s h22 will make 250whp tops so you got one there.. I hardly call a bolt-on h22 cb7 "heavily modified" though. On the cb7's defense, switching from the f22 trans to the m2s4 trans I have now dropped mine from 15.8's to 15.1's back when all I had was ebay I/h/e/h23 I.M. and tb with bisi cam and chipped p06. The si is geared perfect for it's stock engine. I put money on a stock euro r complete swap in a cb7 on nothing but a 2.25" cat back ( same size as stock si piping) and a 4.64 fd (si is 4.764) will mop the floor with the si. I bet an f20b the exhaust and t2w4 trans with 4.64fd would still out run a new si.

You are being a twat.

1) Did the CB7 come with an H22, or was it swapped in? That makes it heavily modified.

2) The K20 was STOCK, the H22 was not. Dollar for Dollar, bolt on for bolt on, the K20 will wax the shit out of the H22 in terms of power gains. It is proven, and it isn't arguable.

That said, I said NEARLY 300WHP. 270 is pretty close. That said, 270 without touching the block is a fuck of a lot more than any H22 I have ever seen. Of course, if you touch the bottom end on your H22, I can touch the bottom end on the K20 and throw an F22 crank in there, which WILL put 300WHP down to the ground.

the sedan DOES run different times. my buddy kev has a 08 coupe, it ran 15.6's. my buddy jay has an 08 sedan and his ran 15.3's on the same day. and as far as the 14.8 cars, i figured that one out aswell. nothing but a flashpro with a custom tune will put a stock si sedan running 14.8's due to lower vtec engagement resulting in an additional 31whp at the beginning of 2nd and 3rd gear. peak power was, get this, 186whp & 133wtq vs the prelude he has that makes 187whp & 14Xwtq with a type-s h22 swap with bolt-ons on the same dyno. his prelude is actually a automatic and from a dig the si pulls on it till about 50mph then the the lude walks it down just in time to pass it before it goes through the traps. 14.896 on the si vs 14.736 in the lude. the si's are nice well rounded cars but drag racing is not one of it's strong points. too much weight and not enough torque to make if competitive. you should have seen it against betsy, lmao. 13.830 to 14.847, it was real bad to watch from what my brother says. took all of the fun out of my night though, every time they'd line me up against a hatch or ej coupe or the like, they'd wave me around so they could run each other. i got stuck running a bunch of f-body chevys and fox body fords. the cars were always way slower or way faster. once the excitement is gone i lose focus and my times suffer from my boredom, lol. i think a cb7 ex sedan with f20b, 2.25" exhaust, T2W4 trans with 4.64 is a 20yr old equivalent to the 08 si. both are fully loaded, weigh close to the same, would run similar times with the cb7 still being the better bang for the buck. a 1993 ex sedan with the f20 manual engine, the aforementioned trans setup, a set of all new oem bushings and arms, F&F coilover, 5lug swap with civic si wheels and a k&n panel filter with apexi WS2 exhaust and you still have less than half the cost of the civic si with the same performance, reliability and with the right choice of styling cues, just as nice of an appearance in my opinion.

1) You need to learn grammar, if you want adults to actually take you seriously. That said, other than your claims about the Si, nothing else was relevant to the conversation.

2) Still full of shit. The driver is the variable. You assume that because your one friend apparently runs differently than another, it is the car. The laws of physics dictate that the coupe weighs less, has the same power, and pretty much all of the same suspension geometry. Other than the driver, there is nothing that indicates the coupe is SLOWER. That is also backed up by large scale data of drag races, and not your boys' observations at a single track.

3) I never claimed the Si was a drag car. That said, it is equally laughable to claim the Accord as a drag car. What I DID claim, was that stock for stock the K20 is stronger. It puts nearly the same torque down as the H22, but does it over a wider power band, with better gearing, and better top end breathing. I know because I actually do own an H22 swapped CB7. And it runs like a top. I also own a completely stock 8th gen Si. My Si will walk my Accord everytime. They are both equivalent in that I didn't strip my Accord, and I am not trying to compare a stripper DX to a fully loaded Si, when the Si is stock and the Accord's H22 is not. For the record, my Accord has a few minor bolt-ons, an M2B4, and great suspension. It still isn't faster. If I spend the same money on my Si that I spent on my Accord, the Si will completely walk the shit out of the Accord.

3) Your financial assumptions about owning a car are flawed.

A) An Accord is a $1500 car at best, no matter how much you modify it.
The Si cost me $20K out the door 5 years ago. It is still worth $15K.
My Accord is not.
B) My Accord is still a 24 year old car, and while pristine as far as CB7's
go, it still has the problems of a 24 year old car. Such problems that
the Civic just doesn't have.
C) I can assure you that the Si also offers a ton more than just inferior
performance over a modified Accord.

4) To make sure I understand this properly... You are now trying to prove that a Prelude with a Type-S H22 swap is superior to a K20 Si? How about if I start swapping Type R stuff onto my Si and we see what happens? With the STOCK H22, my Si has proven more than once without question it was faster than the Prelude. 5th gens especially.

5) If you have a dyno pull showing a 100% stock Si picking up 31WHP from just a Flashpro, I would like to see it. Everything I have seen is around 15-20HP at the peak gain with the VTEC change relocated to 4300-4500RPM. I haven't seen anything even close to resembling a 31WHP gain, and that includes on Hondata's own Flashpro dynos on a stock Si. Even with a custom tune, you are only looking at a couple HP and a couple lb-ft over the stock Hondata tune on a stock K20Z3.

[toycar]

[QUOTE=owequitit;3194281]You are being a twat.

[QUOTE]

You are arguing with the king of hypothetical builds equaling factual numbers based on estimated cc's multiplied by different gear ratios and his own personal experience. No wonder the conversation is going the way it is.

[owequitit]

You are arguing with the king of hypothetical builds equaling factual numbers based on estimated cc's multiplied by different gear ratios and his own personal experience. No wonder the conversation is going the way it is.

HAHA. I will keep that in mind. I suppose there is a reason I never paid much attention to his posts.

To the OP: It was a good run. But watch the modified Si's because they get a lot nastier a lot faster than an H22 build.

[jdm92_accorn]

]

[QUOTE=toycar;3194355][QUOTE=owequitit;3194281]You are being a twat.

You are arguing with the king of hypothetical builds equaling factual numbers based on estimated cc's multiplied by different gear ratios and his own personal experience. No wonder the conversation is going the way it is.

Last I checked you were arguing that cam gears are the answer to an improperly installed timing belt so I don't think you have any reason to be running off at the mouth.

As far as owequitit, It's funny how he's arguing that the si's k20 was stock is why it lost yet wants to run a stock h22 against a modded k20, how does that level the playing field? As far as being grammatically correct, nobody is perfect, I'm not an English major after all I'm just a simple mechanic, lol. 270whp is not close to 300whp when you are talking about naturally aspirated power, any real car guy will tell you that. As far as dollar for dollar the k20 making more power without opening up the bottom end, I don't think so. You can pick up I/h/e/cams and a chipped ecu for about 2k all new. 2k in a k20 for a new si is I/h/e/reflash if you're thrifty. That still put you at 190whp if you're lucky on a superflow and 200whp easily on a dynojet. The h22 will make 210whp on a superflow with pro1's and a bad tune 215-220whp on a good day with a great tune. As far as the 31whp gain, altitude, humidity and ambient temps can change the power that much. Your oringinal argument was and I quote
[QUOTE=owequitit;3193276]

That said, I can also assure you from personal experience that a bone stock 8th gen Si will pull the shit out of anything resembling a stock H22 with a stock H22 transmission.
[/QUOTE

I'm sorry my friend but a full type-s swap in an ex sedan cb7 would outrun an 08' si and a dx sedan would murder it. Then bolt-ons for bolt-ons it'd stay ahead.

As far and the money goes I was simply stating that for the money it'd cost to buy a stock 08' si a cb7 could be bought, restored and made to be faster. No where did I argue resale value, lol.

[toycar]

Last I checked you were arguing that cam gears are the answer to an improperly installed timing belt so I don't think you have any reason to be running off at the mouth.

Man, you can't be told anything about anything. You know everything, about everything. You are still holding onto that, and the thing is, I have seen that done as well as have done that a dozen times. You, never tried it, and cannot fathom how its even reasonable to be done-EVEN THOUGH IM TELLING YOU I'VE DONE IT A DOZEN TIMES.


Its like you are unable to realize that there is more than one way to do anything, and your way is the only real way or something. And no where did I say that was the answer, I said it was an option to be considered if the guy couldn't get it figured out.


Even if he didn't do it like I said(loosen gears so cams don't rotate when tension is applied to belt) the little bit he would be off in timing is correctable-WITH ADJUSTABLE GEARS. Adjustable gears generally have 20 degrees of allowable rotation, per gear. Are you trying to tell me that jumping a tooth or two couldn't be corrected with adjustable gears for a novice that cannot set the timing spot on to save his life?


You are the one taking me out of context and acting like I said that adjustable cam gears intended to be used as tools to set timing or something. Thats not it at all, and you are a fool for making that assumption. I suggested it as a method to help that guy get his timing straightened out, since he obviously cannot do it right the normal way.


And seriously, you want to treat me like Im stupid for suggesting it then come back with some assanine approach using fucking zip ties to hold your cams in time? Seriously?

I just need to walk away from this discussion, because you do offer valueable shit to this community, but if we were in person I would call your bluff buddy.




Scott's right. K series will pwn an h22 any day of the week. You made the arguement for that exactly with all your hypothetical crap about your k-swap desires in this thread;

http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthre...66#post3186766

And you said;

my whole thing is the k-series is easier to drive everyday with 250whp due to true variable cam timing and lift coupled with the ability to run higher compression at leaner afr's than an h22. a 250whp h22 can be driven everyday but it will consume fuel much quicker than a 250whp k24. cost for cost a 2.4L k24 is cheaper than a 2.4L h22. if it was about just slapping on kinslers and going all out, id definitely stick with the f-series. sorry but an h22 wouldnt be as fast for same money invested. a badass cam, 09' tsx pistons, budget port job and billet maxi-lite F23 crower rods and im looking at 240-250whp.
thats
budget port $150
bore block $80
tsx pistons $300
cam $800
rods $700
f23/f22a LB $150
valvesprings $200
h23 IM portd $20
skunk2 70mm $0
custom hytech
rep header $600
less than 4k running and tuned.

long story short since were it's the k-series' ability to have better street manners at 250whp. i did find out today Drive Shaft Shop can just make me lvl 2.9 custom axles with measurement for roughly $900-$1000 so that is the last of it. i think i will end up just getting a whole tsx swap and run a stock ecu with the immobilizer adapter. that way maybe i can get it up and going for less than 6k. i dont plan on swapping without a 6spd, lol.

And yeah, It was definetly in this thread that I started forming an opinion that you cannot be told anything, have answers for everything, and your hypothetical scenarios hold more fact than actual facts.


Seriously. You throw out so many untested combinations of parts and then argue that it will produce blah blah blah whp like it is fact or something.


jesus. I just need to stop typing.







And so what, your arguement about the H22 being better, is that just for this thread? Because you completely argued against me suggesting an H22 when you wanted to k-swap. So, which is it?

[98vtec]

You are arguing with the king of hypothetical builds equaling factual numbers based on estimated cc's multiplied by different gear ratios and his own personal experience. No wonder the conversation is going the way it is.

LOL!

probably the funniest thing i have read in the last few weeks.

[jdm92_accorn]

Man, you can't be told anything about anything. You know everything, about everything. You are still holding onto that, and the thing is, I have seen that done as well as have done that a dozen times. You, never tried it, and cannot fathom how its even reasonable to be done-EVEN THOUGH IM TELLING YOU I'VE DONE IT A DOZEN TIMES.


Its like you are unable to realize that there is more than one way to do anything, and your way is the only real way or something. And no where did I say that was the answer, I said it was an option to be considered if the guy couldn't get it figured out.


Even if he didn't do it like I said(loosen gears so cams don't rotate when tension is applied to belt) the little bit he would be off in timing is correctable-WITH ADJUSTABLE GEARS. Adjustable gears generally have 20 degrees of allowable rotation, per gear. Are you trying to tell me that jumping a tooth or two couldn't be corrected with adjustable gears for a novice that cannot set the timing spot on to save his life?


You are the one taking me out of context and acting like I said that adjustable cam gears intended to be used as tools to set timing or something. Thats not it at all, and you are a fool for making that assumption. I suggested it as a method to help that guy get his timing straightened out, since he obviously cannot do it right the normal way.


And seriously, you want to treat me like Im stupid for suggesting it then come back with some assanine approach using fucking zip ties to hold your cams in time? Seriously?

I just need to walk away from this discussion, because you do offer valueable shit to this community, but if we were in person I would call your bluff buddy.




Scott's right. K series will pwn an h22 any day of the week. You made the arguement for that exactly with all your hypothetical crap about your k-swap desires in this thread;

http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthre...66#post3186766

And you said;




And yeah, It was definetly in this thread that I started forming an opinion that you cannot be told anything, have answers for everything, and your hypothetical scenarios hold more fact than actual facts.


Seriously. You throw out so many untested combinations of parts and then argue that it will produce blah blah blah whp like it is fact or something.


jesus. I just need to stop typing.







And so what, your arguement about the H22 being better, is that just for this thread? Because you completely argued against me suggesting an H22 when you wanted to k-swap. So, which is it?

You know what, you're right, I am being an ass about things, I should'nt talk down to people. I apologize for that. I know what you are talking about doing with the cam gears, it can work, i still say it should only be done that way with a degreeing wheel. As far as everyone on me about my "hypothetical builds", I'm saying to compare on equal playing fields, not saying my bench racer is faster than your actual car and I'm sorry if it comes off that way. I also would like to say I have a lot of respect for the new si, my buddy jay has one and I love it
It is different than a cb7 not better and a cb7 is not better than a si. Better is an opinion, not a fact and I should not state it as better so I'm wrong if I said it. Can a cb7 be faster than an 08' si for the same 15k, yes that is my point. My point in that other thread is that the h22 cannot be as civil n/a at 250whp as the k20 can which is true. The h22 however can be swapped into a cb7 and make 250whp cheaper than you can buy an 08' si which both of those are indeed fact not opinion. Again I apologize for being rude and asinine to make my point. Every one should be entitled to their opinion without ridicule.

[gloryaccordy]

No swipes at jdm92_accorn but weren't you just talking about putting a K in your CB not long ago

Now the H is superior?

K>H>F, with K being the best if you have the money to buy a car that comes with it and H being the best value if you are gonna swap. But yea, a bolt on H would have to be healthy and well tuned to put down what a K does stock and I'm not even going to get into the transmissions.........

[ThatOneAccord]

I think we should just leave it alone. Guys the K series is YEARS ahead of the H in technological advancements. It doesn't matter what you do to your H in N/A form. You won't make what the K makes with the same upgrades. Stock for stock with both engines basically brand new it would be very evenly matched. That being the H mated to a CB coupe and the K a civic Si sedan.

[jdm92_accorn]

No where did I say the h was superior. I simply stated power can be had cheaper with an h.