Cb7 Stock H22 Vs. Civic Si K20 (Street)

[tutsuo]

C'mon guys, we all know the K-series is technologically better, but my H22A was on a great tune, i weighed something like 300lbs less, and i do know how to drive :P . As you can see i didnt destroy the guy just slowly passed him. a Win is a win though.

PS- i forgot i also had a 8-11 pound flywheel dunno if that such a big deal or not.

[owequitit]

[QUOTE=jdm92_accorn;3194449]]

[QUOTE=toycar;3194355][QUOTE=owequitit;3194281]You are being a twat.



Last I checked you were arguing that cam gears are the answer to an improperly installed timing belt so I don't think you have any reason to be running off at the mouth.

As far as owequitit, It's funny how he's arguing that the si's k20 was stock is why it lost yet wants to run a stock h22 against a modded k20, how does that level the playing field? As far as being grammatically correct, nobody is perfect, I'm not an English major after all I'm just a simple mechanic, lol. 270whp is not close to 300whp when you are talking about naturally aspirated power, any real car guy will tell you that. As far as dollar for dollar the k20 making more power without opening up the bottom end, I don't think so. You can pick up I/h/e/cams and a chipped ecu for about 2k all new. 2k in a k20 for a new si is I/h/e/reflash if you're thrifty. That still put you at 190whp if you're lucky on a superflow and 200whp easily on a dynojet. The h22 will make 210whp on a superflow with pro1's and a bad tune 215-220whp on a good day with a great tune. As far as the 31whp gain, altitude, humidity and ambient temps can change the power that much. Your oringinal argument was and I quote

That said, I can also assure you from personal experience that a bone stock 8th gen Si will pull the shit out of anything resembling a stock H22 with a stock H22 transmission.
[/QUOTE

I'm sorry my friend but a full type-s swap in an ex sedan cb7 would outrun an 08' si and a dx sedan would murder it. Then bolt-ons for bolt-ons it'd stay ahead.

As far and the money goes I was simply stating that for the money it'd cost to buy a stock 08' si a cb7 could be bought, restored and made to be faster. No where did I argue resale value, lol.

Reading comprehension is obviously not your forte. Of course, based on your lack of grammar skills, that is not entirely surprising. Go back and re-read what I wrote, with an emphasis on trying to understand it this time.

I was arguing STOCK K20 versus STOCK H22, or MODDED K20 versus MODDED H22. Your choice which comparison you want to choose. I never said anything about modded K20 versus stock H22 other than to point out the fact that a CB7 DX is already heavily modified just by virtue of the fact there is an H22 sitting in the engine bay. Not sure what is so hard to understand about that, but let me know if you need further clarification. I didn't realize we were talking about rocket science here.

[youngflyndsaved]

well this got out of hand lol..

owequitit - it's not that i dont agree with you because i do but to a certain extent.

all these extra mods n numbers bein thrown out can vary so much from car to car, that it's not even worth arguing on the accuracy of it.

K's are way ahead of H's as far as the engineering behind it. no one can bet against that.

i was saying if an h22a cb7 was to similar spec (as far as engine wise) to a civic si, the accord would be more likely to dominate.

Si's come with better components from the factory. better exhaust system, better transmission gearing, better suspension, younger motor, plus more

if you gave those to an Accord i'm sure it'll be pretty hard to beat given the Accord is naturally lighter.

your sig gives away that you're pro-k20 so it's probably goin out one ear anyway, wasn't trying to argue

[owequitit]

well this got out of hand lol..

owequitit - it's not that i dont agree with you because i do but to a certain extent.

all these extra mods n numbers bein thrown out can vary so much from car to car, that it's not even worth arguing on the accuracy of it.

K's are way ahead of H's as far as the engineering behind it. no one can bet against that.

i was saying if an h22a cb7 was to similar spec (as far as engine wise) to a civic si, the accord would be more likely to dominate.

Si's come with better components from the factory. better exhaust system, better transmission gearing, better suspension, younger motor, plus more

if you gave those to an Accord i'm sure it'll be pretty hard to beat given the Accord is naturally lighter.

your sig gives away that you're pro-k20 so it's probably goin out one ear anyway, wasn't trying to argue

The Accord isn't naturally lighter. They weigh about the same when equipped similarly (i.e. EX vs Si). And sorry, but a bone stock Si will walk anything with a bone stock H22 when in an equivalent setup (except maybe a Type-S, but then again, there is always the K20R). I have both. And it isn't a stripper DX versus a fully loaded Si. It is fully loaded versus fully loaded.

The Si will also pretty comfortably pull on a lightly modified 5th gen Prelude 5MT. Again, I know from experience.

The Si makes more power, similar torque, has a better powerband, a higher redline, and better gearing.

Also, it isn't nearly as cheap to rebuild an Accord to new spec as people assert. The problem with most people who don't track costs is that they don't realize how much they actually spend. Ask Hondafan81 how much it costs to completely refurb a CB7.

I can tell you that it was $1,000 for me to put my suspension on, another $300 to refresh the bushings, $500 for a healthy H22 (back then that was an absolute steal), about $500 for the LSD tranny, $500 for the clutch and flywheel, several hundred for mounts, accessory brackets and the hydraulic line for power steering. I spent nearly $300 on the cluster conversion, $200 or so on the short shifter and shifter knob, another $300-500 on the front brake conversion and around another $300-500 for the rear disc conversion. I spent over $1000 making the stereo equivalent, and the 17" wheels and tires (ironically identical size to the Si's stock wheels) were another $1,000. Add another $400 for the header, $500 for the exhaust, $500 for the strut bars, and that is another $1500. Throw in the appearance stuff, and you are talking over another $1,000 (I would argue this is necessary to make the car "equivalent" to the Si because the Si is more aggressive looking than a stock CB7 or a stock Civic.

That's nearly $8K to make my CB7 truely "equivalent" to a STOCK Si. My Accord was not a beater and didn't require any sort of body work or other mechanical repair to make it top notch. It was absolutely pristine when I bought it, and stayed that way until it got rear-ended (it is still mechanically better than 99% of the cars on this site). So realistically, if I found a clean CB7 for $2K and then spent $6-8K getting it where my car is, I have a car that is ALMOST as fast as a STOCK Civic Si. Of course, the Si is a lot newer, a lot safer, has quite a few more features stock, has similar interior space in a 6" smaller car, and is still worth more than twice what I spent on the Accord. It is solid, drum tight, and has a lot more room to grow. I can also resale it with no issues. My insurance covers it, maintenance is cheaper, it has quicker steering, bigger brakes (bigger than even the Prelude brakes on my Accord) and I didn't have to fuck with it to get it that way. If I WANT to fuck with it, it is actually cheaper, because K series parts are more plentiful than aftermarket H series parts (it is the defacto swap engine and replaced the B series after all), and there are literally thousands more parts available for my specific engine/chassis combo. It is just no contest. Sure you can build a CB7 for cheaper. But you are left with a cheaper car, that isn't worth nearly what you paid for it. With the Si, that is not the case.

Look at the evidence. In a car that is 300lbs lighter than the SI and was modified (beyond just the engine swap, which is a MAJOR modification) he could BARELY pull on a 100% stock Si. I guarantee the Si is a much nicer ride in every other situation imaginable, and it had NOTHING done to it. Sure it was more expensive. And it was worth it.

As for your assertions about what the Si comes with from the factory, you are only partly correct. The K20 actually benefits more from breathing mods than the H22 does on a stock car. Part of it is that the K20 flows better, but part of it is also that the Honda stuff is somewhat restrictive. Adding an intake, header, and exhaust to an other wise stock K20 can unleash upwards of 30WHP. That indicates pretty clearly that the stock parts aren't designed for maximum performance only. Put a good tune on it with Flashpro, and it will pick up about 10-15 more over nearly 8,000RPM's of revs. Don't get me wrong, the stock tune isn't as crappy as the H22's, but it is definitely tuned conservatively, just like every other DOHC VTEC Honda. Start putting bigger throttle bodies, cams (DIC's that don't require a valvetrain overhaul) etc on it and you are looking at another 30-50HP just because. They will also do nearly 170-180 lb-ft if setup right. Punch them out to 2.2L with an F22C crank and they will add another 30-50HP on top of that. The K series literally shits HP as far as an NA engine is concerned. K20's pretty routinely get up into the 230+WHP range without really cracking the engine open. If I really want to be a dick, I will just spend the cash on a Kraftwerks supercharger kit and put 370-400WHP down at a low enough boost that the engine will run it forever. Oh yeah, my CB7 with H22 and M2B4 averaged about 27MPG combined. My K20 in the same situations is giving about 30MPG even combined.

My point is that there are a TON of advantages to a factory stock Si over a swapped, hacked and modded CB7 than just being almost as fast. And, if we want to talk modded car versus modded car, the SI will win.

[youngflyndsaved]

you win, like I said. I already kill myself writing long essays for school I don't wanna do that for something I consider my hobby too.

It is expensive but I wouldn't spend all the money the way you did though. suspension, ball joints, bushings, rods to make it equivalent to a new car. equivalent exhaust to an Si (dropping an h22a that needs heavy breathing and swapping it on a car that comes stock with 1.75" diameter exhaust all the way back is just retarded). short geared trans like the K's, which t2w4 is the best to offer but still inferior. better intake system. a base tune that's not rich as fuck. i'm not gonna argue that the K is even better because the intake manifold is infront (cooling properties), with the header in rear making a shorter exhaust system with adequate pressure more velocity (since we are saying stock engine for stock engine).

[jdm92_accorn]

wouldn't it be reading comprehension not grammar and I do anderstand where you're coming from. I love how you keep talking about my English skill set as if it affects my mechanical knowledge. I have a few last things to say and then I will stop wasting my time with this thread, gearing, modifications, climate along with geological location can change the way in engine is perceived. don't let one set up have your views set. I am fully aware of what a k-series is capable of and what the h/f series is capable of. A civic si is a great car, I'm sorry for bashing on it, my cb7 is a great car, these are both my opinion. The fastest I've personally watched a bone stock 08' si go is 15.2 and I was driving it. My bolt-on f22 ran a 15.2 with ebay bolt-ons and a cam. This is waaay cheaper than buying an 08'si, is it superior, no. Is it better in my opinion, yes. I'm stopping this at your opinion is yours, mine is mine and I will respectfully disagree from now on without argument. I will give my opinion and if someone has something to say about it I will not be returning fire.

[TheFunk]

[owequitit]

you win, like I said. I already kill myself writing long essays for school I don't wanna do that for something I consider my hobby too.

It is expensive but I wouldn't spend all the money the way you did though. suspension, ball joints, bushings, rods to make it equivalent to a new car. equivalent exhaust to an Si (dropping an h22a that needs heavy breathing and swapping it on a car that comes stock with 1.75" diameter exhaust all the way back is just retarded). short geared trans like the K's, which t2w4 is the best to offer but still inferior. better intake system. a base tune that's not rich as fuck. i'm not gonna argue that the K is even better because the intake manifold is infront (cooling properties), with the header in rear making a shorter exhaust system with adequate pressure more velocity (since we are saying stock engine for stock engine).

The stuff you list as your list of to-do's is pretty much exactly what I did. the difference between me and 90% of the people on this site is that I didn't use cheap ebay shit. Remember, to be EQUIVALENT to a stock Si, it has to have similar ride quality etc. It is doable, but you are going to pay more for it. I actually spent very little money on appearance mods (and if you looked at my Accord's thread, you would know that). The mechanical upgrades all in were about $6-7K. It isn't like I pissed away a bunch of money.

For the record, I spent $20K out the door on my then new Si. It is still worth $15K according to KBB, so technically, the Si has been cheaper than the Accord was.

[tutsuo]

I do not know where we went, but we need to get back. I kicked the SI ass. I am lighter and faster. If the K had a tune and i/h/e like me im sure he would have won, however, thats not the first k iv beaten and wont be the last.

LONG LIVE THE H22A !






ps- i want a K swap

[Dy2*STR33T-KING]

I am an hour away from Indy and come there quite often. I own an 03 (slow) Si with just intake, Shorty header and exhaust. I would absolutely love to race your H22 Accord, record a video of the event AND post it for everyone to see. Plus it's been a while since I had some White Castle so I'd be more than willing to drive there 8)

[tutsuo]

I am an hour away from Indy and come there quite often. I own an 03 (slow) Si with just intake, Shorty header and exhaust. I would absolutely love to race your H22 Accord, record a video of the event AND post it for everyone to see. Plus it's been a while since I had some White Castle so I'd be more than willing to drive there 8)

Ill run you, even though my H22A is in pieces getting built, i'm on that turbo F22 on little boost. :] Ill run you.

[Dy2*STR33T-KING]

Na, don't feel like running something boosted lol. But motor to motor I'd love that, I have plenty of boosted cars to get raped by over here if I wanted that 8)

[tutsuo]

Na, don't feel like running something boosted lol. But motor to motor I'd love that, I have plenty of boosted cars to get raped by over here if I wanted that 8)

I hear ya, i will hopefully will never drive an N/A car for longer then a week. That would make me sad.

[Dy2*STR33T-KING]

I hear ya, i will hopefully will never drive an N/A car for longer then a week. That would make me sad.

After I get my suspension taken care of in the Ep3 I'm going semi built k24a2 and JRSC cant wait 8)

[owequitit]

wouldn't it be reading comprehension not grammar and I do anderstand where you're coming from. I love how you keep talking about my English skill set as if it affects my mechanical knowledge. I have a few last things to say and then I will stop wasting my time with this thread, gearing, modifications, climate along with geological location can change the way in engine is perceived. don't let one set up have your views set. I am fully aware of what a k-series is capable of and what the h/f series is capable of. A civic si is a great car, I'm sorry for bashing on it, my cb7 is a great car, these are both my opinion. The fastest I've personally watched a bone stock 08' si go is 15.2 and I was driving it. My bolt-on f22 ran a 15.2 with ebay bolt-ons and a cam. This is waaay cheaper than buying an 08'si, is it superior, no. Is it better in my opinion, yes. I'm stopping this at your opinion is yours, mine is mine and I will respectfully disagree from now on without argument. I will give my opinion and if someone has something to say about it I will not be returning fire.

Grammar and reading comprehension are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Also, the fact that I specifically mentioned both and you didn't get it (hence this response) pretty much proved my point.

That said, you can try to justify your poor English by saying it doesn't have anything to do with your mechanical aptitude, and that may be partly correct. However, if one can't take the time to format at least reasonably proper English, who is to say that they take the time and put the attention to detail into getting a top notch outcome? People who can communicate effectively are usually taken more seriously, and in my experience are often more knowledgeable about their product.

The rest of your post is an attempt to build up your credibility and make yourself look knowledgeable. It doesn't matter what your personal best experience with an Si is. There are plenty of time slips that put them lower than a 15.2. Whether or not you have experienced it is irrelevant. As for your assertions about the CB7 being better, you are entitled to your opinion. However, as an owner of both a mint swapped CB7 and a stock Si, I can assure you there is a lot more advantage to owning an Si than running a 15.2 stock 1/4 mile. And for what its worth, my Si has walked every single 4 banger Accord it has run, and that was with me driving it. It wasn't even close, even with bolt-ons. So far, none of the bolt on H22 Ludes have kept up either.

I do not know where we went, but we need to get back. I kicked the SI ass. I am lighter and faster. If the K had a tune and i/h/e like me im sure he would have won, however, thats not the first k iv beaten and wont be the last.

LONG LIVE THE H22A !

ps- i want a K swap

You hardly kicked anyone's ass. Barely pulling on a stock car with a modified one when you SHOULD be making about the same power and have a 300lb weight advantage hardly counts as kicking his ass. You won, but not by a lot. And I bet if it were from a dig, you would likely not have caught him.