proof God exists

[deevergote]

It's not a strong argument, for sure. It's a suggestion. It can be defended or ripped to shreds easily based on the amount of information presented.

It's the chicken or the egg argument, basically.


Honestly, the first flaw in that argument is the assumption that there must be a beginning and an end. Just because everything we know has such doesn't mean that the universe abides by such laws. Matter can not be created or destroyed. That's a law here on Earth, and in our comprehensible fraction of space. Assuming all our "laws" apply universally is more closed-minded than any racist statement you could possibly utter. We have no idea how large the universe is (again, we assume it ends... because size cannot be measured if it's infinite). We have no idea what rules the universe plays by.

[Accord R33]

because size cannot be measured if it's infinite). We have no idea what rules the universe plays by.

sure it can. the same way infinite time can be measured. all you need is a frame of reference.

[defjamon22z]

defjamonz, jesus didnt put male and female animals on a boat.

not to be kiddish but that's the best picture i can find thru yahoo image search. annnnd who that guy suppose to be? and isnt the left side a male and the right side a female?

[Accord R33]

not to be kiddish but that's the best picture i can find thru yahoo image search. annnnd who that guy suppose to be? and isnt the left side a male and the right side a female?

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

HAHAHAHAHAH

HA

H......shit im tired from laughing.

[deevergote]

It still can't be measured. The concept of infinity is as abstract as the concept of god. It can't be proven. If something can continue infinitely, you can't measure it. If it goes in a circle, sure, you can measure that. If it comes to a halt, you can measure that. If there is no end, you can only measure what can be recorded and forseen. What was and what is are immeasurable without endpoints.

[Accord R33]

It still can't be measured. The concept of infinity is as abstract as the concept of god. It can't be proven. If something can continue infinitely, you can't measure it. If it goes in a circle, sure, you can measure that. If it comes to a halt, you can measure that. If there is no end, you can only measure what can be recorded and forseen. What was and what is are immeasurable without endpoints.

i guess you have to define "measure" first.

anyway, it doesn't really matter. because according to all observation, the universe is certainly not infinite. If it was, there would need to be an equal (infinite) amount of mass. and even taking Dark matter into account, there is no where near infinite mass. In an infinite universe, without infinite mass, you have a complete gravitational collapse. The universe would go back to the way it was before the big bang, and we would not be here to ask how and why. hence "the universe only exists in its current state because we exist"

[defjamon22z]

energy cant multiply starting from 0. but 1. okay. so where did we come from? another planet . like we're on a mission to see if we could live in the moon or other planets. that once happen here on earth. people wanted to c if we could live on earth. the few who made it surivive and sumthing mystery happen to their planet blah blah blah. anyways. change subject.

[defjamon22z]

i guess you have to define "measure" first.

anyway, it doesn't really matter. because according to all observation, the universe is certainly not infinite. If it was, there would need to be an equal (infinite) amount of mass. and even taking Dark matter into account, there is no where near infinite mass. In an infinite universe, without infinite mass, you have a complete gravitational collapse. The universe would go back to the way it was before the big bang

the way i see an universe.. is like a bucket of water. we can flow around it but if there's a hole in the bucket we'll fall to the bottom of the bucket. think of this as a universe but instead of water think of it as air. i mean c'mon. u cant keep a pencil in the air yet ur cb7 without some sort of magnet or something like the airboat. so what's holdin the planet up? the universe definitely cant be infinitely. let's just say.. suppose the moon hold is up.. ok. what hold the moon up? ok what hold that up? okay what hold that up? god's finger? so hes thatttt huggee and what we're his sperm or sumthing? get real. and please dont tell me our planet is his nuts. that's sumthin i dont wanna believe man...

[Accord R33]

the way i see an universe.. is like a bucket of water. we can flow around it but if there's a hole in the bucket we'll fall to the bottom of the bucket. think of this as a universe but instead of water think of it as air. i mean c'mon. u cant keep a pencil in the air yet ur cb7 without some sort of magnet or something like the airboat. so what's holdin the planet up? the universe definitely cant be infinitely. let's just say.. suppose the moon hold is up.. ok. what hold the moon up? ok what hold that up? okay what hold that up? god's finger? so hes thatttt huggee and what we're his sperm or sumthing? get real.

well...your thought process is right up to par with pre-Aristotelean Greece. did you know they used to truley believe that the earth was held up by an infinite tower of Giant turtles?
But who knows. im sure in 10,000 years from today, our current theories will sound just as absurd
.
its a true story though..look it up.

anyway,
Nothing holds the earth, or any other matter "up", you are thinking in two dimensions. there is no "up". the REAL question is, whats holding the earth "OUT", away from the original singularity that the universe once was.

[deevergote]

Is the empty space in the universe considered mass? Or is it a void? There is no gravatational pull on the void itself... therefore it cannot collapse.

The big bang theoy is again, a theory. It's supported by many of the greatest minds, but again, they are minds that must assume the universe obeys laws that we can comprehend. Without comprehension, there is no way to even speculate. That assumption is the only way we can even attempt to explain anything. (my concept of measurement, for example... the rule is that there must be a beginning and an end.)


Using conventional concepts, the big bang may have been part of an infinite cycle... perhaps there is no infinite mass in an infinite universe. Perhaps the big bang IS a gravitational collapse. Maybe over time, the universe slowly collapses in on itself, only to explode and begin again. If we can trace the origins of the big bang, how could be possibly prove that it's not the first time? Or the last?

Going on that theory, where is the center? If it's collapsing, and it has collapsed, where does it gather? Is that point God? It creates and destroys, so it fits the overall description...

What creates this center. Why does it exist? Does it always exist in the same place? If so, wouldn't it be the ONLY thing to truly exist through time? Where did it come from? If there is a God, did he create this center? Could he possibly be that far removed from us?

[Accord R33]

Just for the record Deev. i completely agree with you. Im really just playing devils advocate.

however, i dont believe we are as completely oblivious to the universe as you are making us sound. we DO know certain things to be proven facts.

for example..we KNOW that the universe is expanding equally and uniformly in all directions. which could mean two things.

the people 10,000 years ago were right, we ARE the center of the universe.

or, the more modest approach.

everything is moving away from a single point, which suggests that everything was at that point at one time.

i am a strong believe rin the "infinite big bangs" theory though. that the universe reaches a critical size, and begins to re collapse, only to start expanding again.

you should pick up the book "a brief history of time" by Steven hawking. its a fantastic book.

[deevergote]

It's cool. I just like arguing this stuff There is no right or wrong, which makes it fun.

Still, what we KNOW is only based on what we can comprehend. We are only capable of thinking in 3 dimensions, aside from theoretical mathematics... Theoretical mathematics, by nature, can be no more than theory. We do not have the ability to comprehend a 4+ dimensional concept. We can't PROVE anything. Strong theories exist until something comes along to bring reasonable doubt. Going back to Ancient Greece, the theory of Zeus was an extremely strong theory suggesting the origin of lightning, until something better came along.

[defjamon22z]

-sleepin on the desk-

[Accord R33]

for a change of subject, about alternative theories about the universe? or abstract theories?

i have a few of my own. the biggest having to do with the relative size of the universe. just because it seems huge to us, how do we know our whole universe isn't inside a single atom of another universe?

i strongly believe there are more than 1 universe, and that we are infact in a multiverse. and mabye they intersect once in a while creating all the "supernatural" things we have observed throughout history.

i also dont think its out of the realm of possibility that we were put on earth by a higher species, perhaps as some kind of experiment. Mabye our whole universe is a big experiment, created by something in a different universe where there is a COMPLETELY different set of laws.

anyone else have any theories like that?

[deevergote]

The larger universe concept has always been one I've clung to. The similarities of our solar system and atoms are just too close to be coincidence. Or maybe it is... the orbital structure may just be one of the more useful designs in the universe.