proof God exists

[TypeG]

it seems people look for contradictions or anything they can use to discredit the bible in any way.

but

they don't seem to ever to pick apart the anti-religion books or the people who write them. later.

[Accord R33]

they don't seem to ever to pick apart the anti-religion books or the people who write them. later.

thats because its hard to pick apart books with cold hard facts.

[TypeG]

what cold hard facts? you can't prove he doesn't exsist and i, nor anyone else can prove he does. later.

[Accord R33]

of course not. but you cant disprove zues, the boggie man or Santa clause either. does that mean i should believe in all of those?

We are ALL atheists to at least 1 god, some of us just take it 1 god further.

[Smokinspeeds]

now as for rains. the boat jesus brought a female and male of each animal. so they can born more later in life. if he can predict storm so good why cant the weather man do as good as him? and if he said god spoke to him. why wont god spoke to us about katrina ?? that was a huge KILL.

we could've save thousand of lives! world trade center.. people actually jump off the building. and all i hear is god has plan for them. then why do they gotta die a horrible death? why can it be simple like a quick sickness or just let us die in our sleep?

there's alot of things that lead me to become atheist. but no offensive if my family ever go thru that. and if there's such thing as god up there. i will approach him and we will speak in private.

hey all just started reading though the posts want to answer this one... k man first off you hear one thing on a website about a lady moving her arm when supposedly dead, not much details to the situation so we really can't make much of what you are trying to say. Cut the head off a chicken it will walk around for a minute and where did you get the thing of the soul staying in a person? For one if you think for a minute nobody knows what a soul is physically so that is something you can't determine to be anywhere specific by science.

my main point was to your last two paragraphs, mentioned above. 9-11 was told about. Even as far as God being out of the picture we knew something was going to happen and we let bin Laden live when he could have been taken out beforehand. My dad has a prophetic newsletter (another discussion not for here) and he wrote years before about a word someone had concerning buildings falling in New York. To everyone who get's mad at God on a whim for something like 9-11, remember that when you ask where he was on that day, where did you have him before 9-11. You probably didn't hear of all the reports of Christians who normally were on time all for some reason ended up delayed and spared that day.

anyways I'll probably have more replies once I read more posts...

[TypeG]

of course not. but you cant disprove zues, the boggie man or Santa clause either. does that mean i should believe in all of those?

We are ALL atheists to at least 1 god, some of us just take it 1 god further.

you're right.

the only difference is if there is no God, both believer and disbeliever just die and that's that.

but

if there is a God, believer enters heaven, disbeliever becomes believer and enters hell. later.

[deevergote]

it seems people look for contradictions or anything they can use to discredit the bible in any way.

but

they don't seem to ever to pick apart the anti-religion books or the people who write them. later.

That is very true. You can't argue effectively without analyzing both sides.

[Accord R33]

if there is a God, believer enters heaven, disbeliever becomes believer and enters hell. later.

says who? you?

If god didn't let me into heaven for thinking with the mind he gave me, and punishes me for not worshiping his very being, then he is self centered and egotistical. two imperfect traits. And god cannot be imperfect, that is what the Bible says, no? If that were true, than the Devil would be a more perfect being, at least he accepts everyone for who they are.

did you know your going to hell for not praying to ala every day?

[TypeG]

the bible says you can't get into heaven without God, that's who says it.

If god didn't let me into heaven for thinking with the mind he gave me, and punishes me for not worshiping his very being, then he is self centered and egotistical. two imperfect traits. And god cannot be imperfect, that is what the Bible says, no? If that were true, than the Devil would be a more perfect being, at least he accepts everyone for who they are.

yes, God did give you a mind....and you can choose with it, accept or reject.

you saying he's self centered and egotistical is your interpritaion of him.

yes, it does say in the bible that God is perfect and he has the perfect plan, i guess we'll just have to trust him.

she the devil will accept you. he told God that he'd take as many to hell as he could. later.

[Accord R33]

ah yes...the bible said so. i should have guessed.

a famous quote by Steven Weinburg:

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

im going to hell for being a genuinely good person. Wow, god sure is a great guy isnt he? i hope you have fun in heaven with the murderers and rapists who repented their sins before they died. id rather stay with the genuinely good people in hell

[Smokinspeeds]

That's an excellent example of my previous argument from the religious standpoint.

We simply don't have the ability to understand enough to explain God or the universe. Perhaps someday we will. Until then, it's a theory. Math is the tool we have. It's considered the most powerful tool (the computers we all use are based on mathematics). However, it IS imperfect. We haven't explored the full potential of our tools yet, let alone what they can tell us.

A mathematical or logical argument for or against the existance of God is just as strong as one based on faith, honestly. The only difference is that those who have faith know that they have no concrete evidence, and that's good enough for them. Those that are simple enough to believe they've explained God with numbers haven't looked deeply enough.


caseycocker, your argument is good... but please don't preach. We're here to discuss, not be saved.

what 'religious veiw' are you arguing for then? We have manuscripts going well back to compare our current translation of the bible with, there are what people say 'pages or books left out' but there are reasons the macabees (sp?) and other similar books aren't in the bible (they were written 400-500 AD compared to the last books of the bible being only around 40 years after Jesus death).

As for not being able to compare religion and science so many of you are so far out of what's going on currently in the scientific community. We know a christian scientist in Glen rose Tx who is a creationist and is in the year after year process of uncovering one of the longest continual (unbroken) set of dinosour tracks in north america and my brother was working on the dig earlier this year they found a 4 print in one print, being 3 different dinosours and one human print in the same track. There are other human prints running along with the dinosour prints as well. You can find 'mighty worms' which are worms that are upright fossilized-ie they had to be formed in a sudden flood. This man is always uncovering tracks and fossils. An evolutionist tried to break one of the fossils because his theory didn't align with the fossil. As of right now another scientist this scientist knows is challenging the theory of evolution in court, working his way up to the supreme court. $50K if you can win against him. He's trying to get the evolutionists to challenge him. Even your steven hawking won't do it. Nobody sides for evolution, it loses. Unless someone can actually prove something in court vs this man he's talking all the way to the supreme court, which would inevitably get it ruled out and taken out of the education system. More than 60% of people in the us DO NOT believe in evolution. Yet TV and school preaches it almost as more fact than theory. Some say they have proof for evolution. I still haven't seen any that's stood any sort of time. But so much for equality it's taught as fact when if people even tried a little bit they'd find out that there is much much much evidence for creation. Try answersingenesis.org. The scientist I was refering to earlier was Dr Baugh, I'll try to look up his email adress. He's currently building a hyperbaric (sp?) chamber (not like the ones you may have heard of with just higher oxygen levels) to recreat the atmosphere as closely as possible to pre-flood conditions. he already has a miniature model. He has two pacu, now one outside the chamber (near it) and they are growing 4 times the rate they would normally grow. The tank they were in couldn't keep up and one killed the other.

another thing I must say is yes there are a lot of ppl in church that don't walk it out. I'll dare say most ppl in church aren't anymore saved than ppl who don't go/believe. I've seen the evidences of God in my life and cannot deny his existense. You don't have to believe me... just think on this one thing. How much one will push away believing in what Jesus did, and that God exists/is all powerful, yet how quickly when something strange happens ppl will believe it's 'supernatural' -without naming an all powerful being. There is another thread here about hawaii and some superstitions. How many would read that, get chills and believe it somewhat, yet mention God and automatically people put up a whole defense system? And because of that people will believe in Evolution wholeheartedly even tho it's just a theory like creation; because it automatically can't be true becuase it's supernatural? So simply I'll still don't get how people can believe anything evolved majorly from it's original form without error -would not that be like believing in miracles? ppl dont see it that way but evolution takes faith to completely believe just as much as creation does.

[Smokinspeeds]

not flamming you but giving you that proof.

if your a pentecostalist (the group was created 50 days after death of christ) this religion remains today. if is absoutly unharmful. if you are a part of this religion, you live the way jesus live. also you follow ever testament of the 10 testament. One thing in there, Love one another, the same way you love god. ex. if you divorse, you broken a law from god, in this case god dosent want you. also so you know how i know this, is because im a pentacostalist. the religion is expanding and bringing people to god, not to the religion.

one day i heard a story, that why i came to god, and want to see if he'll do this for me.

In the country of Ukraine (where im from) sometimes the electricty comes off in certain areas, so that the power plant can produce enough power. (keep this thought in your mined). At one time (and i think hes still alive today) was a guy that was really close to god, and god really wanted to have a power. (its not like power rangers or anything) He was in a wheelchair and god wanted him like that so that people could belive god. One night there was a church service that he couldn't make. at some hour the light went off. when they came back on, he was at the church. The theroy is that god transfered him from his house to the church without anyone knowing. and this story is true.

so thats just a little example, how god exsist. He cures people through prayers, says people in accidents and saves they from getting into trouble from police (back in the day you couldn't believe in god in Ukraine). now in these times there are probably 2-3 billion people saved, they just have the follow gods rules to get to heaven.

also one ladie got a dream, that god gave to her, and its was a image of heaven. and shes really close to god

also there are people that communicate with god in prayer. and i know one old guy who does.

thats all for now i got to say.

well for you and everyone else I can add to instances like that... my mom's mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer and given three months to live. She was prayed over and Jesus healed her. The best doctor in the state had diagnosed the cancer, and when she went back there was absolutly no sign she had ever had cancer. She ended up getting cancer later and dying(probably gave up the will to be here anymore because of her abusive husband). My mom had a vision in the driving from the funural of her mom carrying a baby in heaven and she thought she was just carrying some child that had died and God told her no it was her child. My mom found out some time later than her mom had had a miscarrage (sp?) and didn't tell the kids about it. I've seen people healed with my own eyes. I've been healed of things. In america we have more churches than probably the rest of the world combined yet rarely does supernatural happen here. Go to other parts of the world and people are seeing unbelieveable things happen. My dad saw a man raised from the dead (4 days he was dead!) in another country. Proof you may not know of but we dont look for it so we don't see it. People don't think when they say that Christians are closeminded, because perhaps they are more closedminded not to see what the rest of the world accepts without all the intelectual garbage of 'what if this' what if that'.

My .o2 and im rambling sorry... ppl rarely read things I post like this and really think about them openly before replying lol.

[Smokinspeeds]

who the feck is this God character you speak of?

have you met him?
has anyone on this planet met him?

the answer is simply no.

until you have evidence or proof of something, you cannot know for sure of it's credibility.

All I'm saying is that a logical thinking person would look at the facts, rather than what a fictional book tells them.
Believing the bible verbatim is no worse than picking any random book in the fiction section at Barnes & Noble and molding your life around it's every word.

It's simply unrealistic.

lol wow speaking of unrealistic let's look at what you said in it's own self light. To know that 'the answer is simply no' in the definite manner you so use that nobody on earth has met god, you would have to be like, wait, a god! so, how much logic is there in saying you know something for sure, even though you are but a fickle human as we all are, knowing very little about very little about this world and what other people have experienced to say you basically know that nobody could have met God? How do you know the bible is completely random and fictional and what would make that fact? you'd have to be a god to actually be able to state that with absolute knowledge that what you said was true. which I would have to say you being a human that is just unrealistic. so far you've proved nothing of what you state so factually in what you just said -unless of course you are god- in which case you wouldnt' be arguing about this...

[SleepersOwn]

AccordR33, no offense but it seems to me you don't like the fact that religious people resort to the teachings of the bible for their answers on certain subjects, but you do the same when you revert to your many books and teachings of other authors. Forgive me if i'm taking you the wrong way but it just seems like your a bit hypocritical because no1 that is religious is taking an open mind to your logical side but your not taking the faithful side to their beliefs. I think that you have some hang up on having to believe in a GOD period and do away with the whole action itself. To you, if you don't find it fitting in your head, why should you follow it ? You are sheep among the masses as well, just a different shepard is leading you.

I'm not saying you should believe in either ( GOD OR NO GOD ). I just think that your passion for the topic is leaving you more sided than is needed. I think of myself as a pretty religious person but I don't see the point of getting sarcastic because someone goes to their teachings for answers and you go yours. If i'm not mistaken, this discussion isn't about proving which side is wrong or right but just that, a discussion. Scientific proof means what ? that it's been agreed upon by our own logics among the nations. Laws of physics are broken all the time yet unexplainable. How so ? I'm not saying this to pick on you, i'm just saying...it seems like your getting a bit testy because someone believes in something you don't see on the same wavelength. If i'm wrong, forgive me...it's just what i was thinking.

[deevergote]

Good arguments. You've brought up some very good points... and no preaching It can be done!

If there are original manuscripts, then I'd be interested to see what matches up. of course, can it be proven that they ARE original? 2000 years is a long time for any written material to hold up. the Old Testament being even older...

The theory of evolution isn't perfect. It's slightly more logical than the creationist approach, but it, too, has many holes in it. However, there scientific evidence does support the idea of adaptive changes in species as conditions change. Granted, small adaptive changes aren't the same as advanced bipedal creatures coming from fish or monkeys. Even if evolution WAS proven to be true, that still doesn't disprove the existance of God. In relating His word to humankind, what makes more sense... a story involving 2 people, explaining the use of reason? Or a detailed explanation of how and why changes were made over many many years? To primitive humans, that detailed explantion would probably have been too much to understand! (hell, for us it probably woudl be too!)

People more readily believe things such as ghosts, even when they are skeptical about God... why? Because God is serious. God has an impact on their life if they believe it. Ghosts are cool. Ghosts are something they can believe in and forget 5 minutes later. Even though they may someday become ghosts, if they do exist, believing or not believing doesn't have an effect on them. It's like watching cartoons vs. the news. Ghosts are a much more casual subject.