P12 or P6 with A6 Manny?

[Vex]

I bought a p12 off cb7_accord the other day, after I did I heard you can swap out the a6 manny and ecu over and still get some power.

I cant do a6 manni with p12.

so will I get more with a6 manny and a6 ecu? or just the p12 itself?

I read somewhere that p12 will be under about 5 hp, which is alot to me since our f22's depend on these small little gains to add up to a nice amount of hp.

[Joshy]

I bought a p12 off cb7_accord the other day, after I did I heard you can swap out the a6 manny and ecu over and still get some power.

I cant do a6 manni with p12.

so will I get more with a6 manny and a6 ecu? or just the p12 itself?

I read somewhere that p12 will be under about 5 hp, which is alot to me since our f22's depend on these small little gains to add up to a nice amount of hp.

The PT6 has a tune specifically mapped for the F22a6. The F22a6 has slightly different head internals (springs, camshaft) than in the F22a1. In addition, the PT6 electronically activates the dual-runners in its intake manifold.

In order to take full effect of what the PT6 offers, your F22 should be a6 equivalent - head, intake manifold, wiring from ecu to the dual-runner diaphragm switch, dual runner vacuum box.

Without all of these components, you're better off running your F22a1 with the P12. With the P12, you can make the most out of your a6 manifold by simply hooking up the dual-runner diaphragm to any available vacuum source, or ditching the butterfly valve inside the manifold all together.

[visualpoet]

I bought a p12 off cb7_accord the other day, after I did I heard you can swap out the a6 manny and ecu over and still get some power.

I cant do a6 manni with p12.

so will I get more with a6 manny and a6 ecu? or just the p12 itself?

I read somewhere that p12 will be under about 5 hp, which is alot to me since our f22's depend on these small little gains to add up to a nice amount of hp.

The p12 will give you 10 hp, not 5, on a completely stock motor. I gained about 15 when I swapped mine because I'd already had some mods done to the car and each mod affects the other ones. For instance , let's say an SRI gives you 5 hp and a full exhaust gives you 10 (numbers aren't actual, just to explain). You'd expect 15 hp from both of them together, but instead, you wind up with 20. (Like having a buddy help you out with something, you both can accomplish more together than you both could seperately)

You can swap the a6 manifold and it's ecu, the swap will give you probably about 8-10 hp at the crank (the 15 hp difference between the a1 and a6 comes from the combination of intake manifold, exhaust, ecu and cam)

You can also use the p12 with the a6 mani, you'll just lose some low end due to the secondary butterflies being open constantly, or you can hook them to a vacuum source and have them closed at low rpms, and then open at higher rpms as they should.

If your options are the a6 mani with the pt6 ecu vs just the p12, I'd recommend the p12. (because it's 10 hp versus whatever chunk of 15 you'd get from the a6 ecu and mani, without the a6 cam and exhaust mani, you're losing quite a few ponies)

However I'd go with the p12, a6 manifold and vacuum activated secondary butterflies. It's the setup I'm building with the an h23 plenum and tb.



Damn it Joshy. You got in while I was typing and dealing with the newbie.

[Vex]

Sounds good, thanks for the information.

[92smokeaccord]

u could just delete the butterflies so u get more air in and use the p12 so u get the better fuel curve as well.iv never tried it but i dont think it will hurt.

[deevergote]

The P12 is programmed for the A1, including the A1 manifold. It might be good with the A6 manifold, but it's a guarantee.



Sometimes I really wish we didn't "discover" the P12. It causes more confusion than anything else, and everyone seems to think it's this miracle mod.

[904drACCORDMANG]

Thats it Deev we need a cb7 tuner dyno so we can finally give definative answers to all these lil hp / tq gain issue!

All in favor say I

[92smokeaccord]

Thats it Deev we need a cb7 tuner dyno so we can finally give definative answers to all these lil hp / tq gain issue!

All in favor say I

i speak for every one when i say I

[93F22A6]

u could just delete the butterflies so u get more air in and use the p12 so u get the better fuel curve as well.iv never tried it but i dont think it will hurt.

Not really, it's better to keep them, been there and done all 4 combos with the iabs(gutted completly sucks on a stock motor, reg vac hook up is best in my opinion.) Maybe more people will start using the PT6 and A6 cam when they fig out they are better, the P12 is better than the PT3 but not by much. Also I think there is a write up about the P12 and the differences and gains from the PT3, don't quote me but I think the only difference is timing not fuel. I'll try and find just to be nice to the newbies.

[Vex]

The p12 will give you 10 hp, not 5, on a completely stock motor. I gained about 15 when I swapped mine because I'd already had some mods done to the car and each mod affects the other ones. For instance , let's say an SRI gives you 5 hp and a full exhaust gives you 10 (numbers aren't actual, just to explain). You'd expect 15 hp from both of them together, but instead, you wind up with 20. (Like having a buddy help you out with something, you both can accomplish more together than you both could seperately)

You can swap the a6 manifold and it's ecu, the swap will give you probably about 8-10 hp at the crank (the 15 hp difference between the a1 and a6 comes from the combination of intake manifold, exhaust, ecu and cam)

You can also use the p12 with the a6 mani, you'll just lose some low end due to the secondary butterflies being open constantly, or you can hook them to a vacuum source and have them closed at low rpms, and then open at higher rpms as they should.

If your options are the a6 mani with the pt6 ecu vs just the p12, I'd recommend the p12. (because it's 10 hp versus whatever chunk of 15 you'd get from the a6 ecu and mani, without the a6 cam and exhaust mani, you're losing quite a few ponies)

However I'd go with the p12, a6 manifold and vacuum activated secondary butterflies. It's the setup I'm building with the an h23 plenum and tb.



Damn it Joshy. You got in while I was typing and dealing with the newbie.

You cannot claim 10 hp, due to the fact that no one has dyno sheets to prove that.

[visualpoet]

You cannot claim 10 hp, due to the fact that no one has dyno sheets to prove that.

Um, actually, I can claim 10 hp, that's the amount Honda claims between the f22a1 Accord (125 hp) and the f22a1 Prelude (135 hp). You don't need a dyno sheet to show factory claims.

I actually gained 15 hp with all the other mods I had before the p12, based on the difference in 1/4 mile and trap speed. (It's how us old guys determined hp before they had dynos, and the same basic mathematic formula used in dynos today).

[deevergote]

The 10hp in the Prelude may be due partially to the different intake and exhaust piping... but the majority of the difference is in the ECU. The engines and manifolds are 100% identical between the Accord and Prelude versions of the F22A1.

[visualpoet]

The 10hp in the Prelude may be due partially to the different intake and exhaust piping... but the majority of the difference is in the ECU. The engines and manifolds are 100% identical between the Accord and Prelude versions of the F22A1.

I've been thinking about the difference in piping, and since it's bhp, not whp, they usually don't have the stock in and out on them when they test the engine in R&D (usually just manifolds and downpipe), so all of it should be from the ECU.

[Vex]

Um, actually, I can claim 10 hp, that's the amount Honda claims between the f22a1 Accord (125 hp) and the f22a1 Prelude (135 hp). You don't need a dyno sheet to show factory claims.

I actually gained 15 hp with all the other mods I had before the p12, based on the difference in 1/4 mile and trap speed. (It's how us old guys determined hp before they had dynos, and the same basic mathematic formula used in dynos today).

Even though both the engines are identical, not the parts that are bolted on to the engine are the same.

Such as, exhuast, headers, etc etc...

But again, you can claim it, but thats you. Im sure you can go around claiming the amount of horsepower you THINK you have, but not having anything to prove it.

[deevergote]

Even though both the engines are identical, not the parts that are bolted on to the engine are the same.

Such as, exhuast, headers, etc etc...

But again, you can claim it, but thats you. Im sure you can go around claiming the amount of horsepower you THINK you have, but not having anything to prove it.

No, all parts bolted to the engine are identical. The difference starts after the exhaust manifold, and before the intake manifold. The differences are subtle, and are very unlikely to have more of an effect than 2hp. The P12 WILL give a significant gain.

Instead of arguing about vague calculations and what you THINK is bolted to the engine, how about you guys get some actual evidence? Neither one of you has anything concrete to present. I at least HAVE researched the parts, cross-referenced the part numbers, and determined what is different and what is the same. That much, I can say is true.