i know the f22a has iron sleeves which is good for boost, but how much boost can the sleeves take? i'm already going to have bisi pistons and i beam rods. i was hoping to run about 12-17lbs of boost. you think stock sleeve can hold up to it?
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the daily: 2001 VW golf 2.0 (tom01golf on local and vw forums)
the project: f22a1 400-450whp (build thread to come when things start picking up) -
Why do people always say that the sleeves are "good for boost"? I suppose that grew out of the myth that the H22's FRM sleeves are "bad for boost", because they won't accept most forged pistons (though they are actually stronger than the stock iron sleeves of other Honda engines, as well as being lighter and better at dissipating heat...)
12-17lbs should be fine on the stock sleeves, as long as you avoid detonation. Any higher, upgrading the sleeves would be a good idea. However, with the right parts, you're going to make more than enough power for a street-driven FWD car with 17lbs anyway.
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17lbs would put me between 430-475whp. which i figure is good for what i'm lookin for.
and i don't really know anything about honda sleeves. i've just had people tell me that the f22 iron sleeves are better for boost.
the daily: 2001 VW golf 2.0 (tom01golf on local and vw forums)
the project: f22a1 400-450whp (build thread to come when things start picking up)Comment
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Don't ever assume that "what people tell you" is accurate... there is a LOT of misinformation in the Honda world (I guess that's true in the automotive world in general...) Understand the concepts yourself, and you'll be much better off!
17lbs will be relative to the parts that you run. 17lbs from a small t3 will be different than 17lbs from a large t04.
The rule of thumb (again "what people say") is often 10hp per lb of boost... so 17lbs by that rule is 170hp... which would result in roughly 300hp by that calculation. Of course, supporting mods, tuning, engine health, and your choice of parts will have a drastic effect on this! Your estimate may be perfectly valid with the correct parts.
However, I wouldn't want more than 300-350whp on a street-driven FWD car... ESPECIALLY if it's going to be a regular mode of transportation! That's a LOT of power to put down. Traction would most certainly be an issue. There are always ways around it (such as being able to limit boost in lower gears, or making sure power delivery comes at a higher RPM...)
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this will NOT be a daily driver by no means. my daily is a 2001 vw golf. this will be a weekend fun car for street/strip.
turbo wise I'm going to be using a t66 turbo
- A/R .70 Compressor
- A/R 0.63 Turbine Housing
- Big 4" Air Inlet, 2.5" Air outlet
- 3" V-Band Exhaust
and a fully built block, head, trans.
its going to be an expensive/fun build, but totally worth it in the end.
the daily: 2001 VW golf 2.0 (tom01golf on local and vw forums)
the project: f22a1 400-450whp (build thread to come when things start picking up)Comment
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Originally posted by deevergote View Post
Cast iron has a permeable surface. Meaning it holds oil. Steel is not a permeable surface.
Thus Cast iron is a better choice than steel seeing as it lubricates better.
Pistons "Scuff" the cyclinder wall. Steel and steel scuffs far more than aluminum that is on a lubricated surface.
Plus Cast Iron is a lot easier to machine and hold tolerance than Steel.
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Ok... when did steel enter the discussion?
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I was just going to ask that?????
FRM sleeves consist of a carbon fiber matrix, aluminum alloy, and aluminum oxide. No steel involved here!Comment
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Originally posted by deevergote View Post
Sorry deeve, I quoted you to far on the quote. Your question was ^. And that's where the quote should of ended.
I wasn't saying the FRM had Steel was saying why the f22a was "Good for boost"Comment
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There's still no real comparison... That's like explaining why broccoli is better for you than granite. Steel sleeves are not an option.
The stock sleeves are not "good for boost". They're simply able to withstand up to a certain amount. They are not considerably better or worse than ay other Honda sleeves.
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I believe the topic is F22a Sleeves.Originally posted by deevergote View Post
So with that said stating why the f22 sleeves are good for boost is very relevant to the "topic".
Although I think broccoli is gross.
Anyways, You state steel sleeves is not an option. I used Steel as a comparison because a lot of motors use Steel as and use a coat of iron on the walls.
"In engines with steel cylinders, conventional aluminum pistons are normally used. Because aluminum-on-aluminum is not a satisfactory combination for durability with a piston sliding in a cylinder, the NSX's aluminum pistons are given an iron coating."
FRM(Really didn't want to debate frm but w/e) is used in NSX's.
That's why forged pistons fuck up the cylinder walls because of the iron coating.
The question I was simply answering was why the sleeves are good for boost.
And my answer was the cast iron being porous and durable.
There's a reason why they coat with IronComment
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That part I understand... but when someone says "F22 sleeves are good for boost", that's generally said because they aren't FRM, like the H22's sleeves. FRM is the only other sleeve option for our cars. That is why the discussion involves FRM and iron sleeves.
Steel sleeves are not an option. There's no need to even employ that comparison, because it has nothing to do with it. Yes, I do understand your reasoning behind the lubrication statement, and I completely agree there... but that has nothing to do with boost. That has to do with general functionality.
The stock sleeves are not "good for boost" in any sense... They'll withstand boost, but no better or worse than FRM.
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What engines use steel cylinders though? The reason they coat the NSX pistons has nothing to do with steel cylinder walls. It's because they are aluminum. That's why you can't run bare forged aluminum pistons in FRM sleeves. Aluminum on aluminum doesn't work very well. Also, I'm not 100%, But I pretty sure that a nickel based ceramic composite (NCC) coating is used now for aluminum pistons to be run in FRM (aluminum) sleeved cylinder engines.
Your chasing your tail with this concept of which is better for boost, FRM or Iron sleeves. The strongest option would be a full iron cylinder. Forget about the 3.5mm thick iron sleeves in the F22 and get some 100% ductile iron cylinders. If you want to put some real power to your engine that's what you'll need. If your only talking about 300-400 whp the FRM & iron sleeved blocks are both strong enough. However you need to know what materials work in combination with each other.Last edited by GhostAccord; 09-13-2010, 10:00 PM.Comment
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300whp is pretty much all anyone would need in a street-driven FWD car anyway. More than that, and traction becomes a problem. For a daily driver, that's no fun. Not to mention efficiency will go out the window! As long as forged pistons can be run (since the stock pistons have ringlands that break under boost), the stock sleeves will easily hold 300whp... as long as everything is done correctly.
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wow, a vw golf for a daily.
anyways, the real question that should be asked is how long should the ringlands and rod bolts hold up?Comment
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